1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,065 My name is Robb Leech, and I'm a film-maker. 2 00:00:10,066 --> 00:00:15,019 Four years ago, I made a documentary about my stepbrother, Rich. 3 00:00:16,063 --> 00:00:19,032 We grew up together in a seaside town in Dorset. 4 00:00:23,025 --> 00:00:25,066 Two white boys from a middle-class family. 5 00:00:27,991 --> 00:00:31,992 But in 2009, he converted to an extreme brand of Islam. 6 00:00:34,021 --> 00:00:37,993 You foolish people risk your life for these degenerate rulers, 7 00:00:37,994 --> 00:00:40,994 these people that conspire to misguide you into the hellfire. 8 00:00:40,995 --> 00:00:43,038 I found him living in a strange new world, 9 00:00:43,039 --> 00:00:46,992 and he changed his name from Rich to Salahuddin. 10 00:00:46,993 --> 00:00:50,052 What's your name? Salahuddin. Salahuddin. 11 00:00:50,053 --> 00:00:53,041 There were loads of guys doing outrageous things 12 00:00:53,042 --> 00:00:56,086 like burning the American flag on the anniversary of 9/11. 13 00:00:56,087 --> 00:01:00,072 Burn, burn, USA! Burn, burn, USA! 14 00:01:01,997 --> 00:01:05,001 And there was one particular guy they all looked up to 15 00:01:05,002 --> 00:01:07,086 called Anjem Choudary, who was always on the TV. 16 00:01:07,087 --> 00:01:12,043 You seem not, if I'm right, to like Britain very much, and... 17 00:01:12,044 --> 00:01:16,068 Everyone talked about fighting jihad and implementing an Islamic state. 18 00:01:16,069 --> 00:01:19,053 When we establish Sharia, we will expand the borders 19 00:01:19,054 --> 00:01:22,090 and take the fight to the enemy, rather than them occupying our land. 20 00:01:22,091 --> 00:01:25,095 The shoe will be on the other foot, Insha'Allah. 21 00:01:25,096 --> 00:01:27,036 But he was no ordinary Muslim. 22 00:01:27,037 --> 00:01:31,101 My step-brother had become a radical Islamist. 23 00:01:31,102 --> 00:01:37,024 And four years on, he's now in prison, a convicted terrorist. 24 00:01:47,071 --> 00:01:50,051 Rich and I grew up in the seaside town of Weymouth. 25 00:01:51,064 --> 00:01:54,061 My dad and his mum married in 1992. 26 00:01:56,021 --> 00:01:58,077 I always looked up to him as an older brother. 27 00:01:58,078 --> 00:02:02,027 But by our mid-twenties, we'd grown apart. 28 00:02:08,085 --> 00:02:13,025 When in 2009, I read he had been converted by Anjem Choudary, 29 00:02:13,026 --> 00:02:15,058 a man the papers call a hate preacher, 30 00:02:15,059 --> 00:02:19,088 I decided to make a film in an attempt to reconnect with him. 31 00:02:21,065 --> 00:02:23,064 There's no bombs in your bags? 32 00:02:23,065 --> 00:02:26,025 No, Insha'Allah, unless the kuffar have planted one there 33 00:02:26,026 --> 00:02:28,034 in order to try and put me inside, I don't know, 34 00:02:28,035 --> 00:02:31,027 but as far as I know there's nothing there, Insha'Allah. 35 00:02:31,028 --> 00:02:33,039 So if I hear ticking, it's just... 36 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,112 Well, maybe an alarm clock or something. 37 00:02:35,113 --> 00:02:40,033 After a year of hanging out, and filming, I was saying goodbye 38 00:02:40,034 --> 00:02:42,082 to Rich as he prepared to fly out for his first Hajj. 39 00:02:42,083 --> 00:02:44,079 But his views were still hard to accept. 40 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,092 While I'm gone, the brothers are going to be doing a demonstration. 41 00:02:47,093 --> 00:02:50,056 I think it's called "British soldiers will burn in hell", 42 00:02:50,057 --> 00:02:51,073 or something like that. 43 00:02:51,074 --> 00:02:55,078 'All of my pent-up feelings escaped in a frustrated outburst'. 44 00:02:55,079 --> 00:02:57,127 You tell me to my face that I'm a filthy kafir. 45 00:02:57,128 --> 00:02:59,083 I've never said that to you. 46 00:02:59,084 --> 00:03:02,040 You won't even touch me unless you use your "dirty" hand. 47 00:03:02,041 --> 00:03:04,049 I've called you a filthy kafir, Robb. 48 00:03:04,050 --> 00:03:06,081 I don't shake your hand, because Islamically, 49 00:03:06,082 --> 00:03:08,119 the sunnah is to shake with the left hand. 50 00:03:08,144 --> 00:03:09,066 That is the sunnah. 51 00:03:09,067 --> 00:03:12,035 But it's permissible to shake with the right hand. 52 00:03:12,036 --> 00:03:14,112 You know, there's a reason and a wisdom behind that, 53 00:03:14,113 --> 00:03:18,077 and, er, I thought you understood that, and it's nothing personal. 54 00:03:18,078 --> 00:03:21,062 You treat everyone who is not an Islamist as sub-human, 55 00:03:21,063 --> 00:03:23,042 by the way you talk. 56 00:03:23,043 --> 00:03:24,063 That's not the case. 57 00:03:24,064 --> 00:03:27,039 The people I've met, the lectures I've gone to. 58 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:28,132 It's clear to see that's the way it is. 59 00:03:28,133 --> 00:03:30,089 I don't think that's the case. 60 00:03:31,098 --> 00:03:36,130 'It wasn't how I wanted to say goodbye. 61 00:03:36,131 --> 00:03:41,053 'When he returned, I was touched by his wish to apologise.' 62 00:03:42,109 --> 00:03:45,141 Certainly, if a non-Muslim comes to you, and they're open-minded 63 00:03:45,142 --> 00:03:48,134 and interested in finding out about Islam, 64 00:03:48,135 --> 00:03:52,079 then we shouldn't make them have those kind of feelings 65 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,080 that you've described of inferiority or whatever else it is, 66 00:03:56,081 --> 00:03:59,061 because that's not an inclining atmosphere to be in, 67 00:03:59,062 --> 00:04:01,082 so if that is how you felt, then obviously 68 00:04:01,083 --> 00:04:04,100 I apologise on my behalf, and I'm sure the brothers don't mind either. 69 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,060 'He seemed to have done some soul-searching, 70 00:04:08,061 --> 00:04:10,101 'and was trying to get things back on track'. 71 00:04:12,058 --> 00:04:14,066 More importantly, I think is the fact 72 00:04:14,067 --> 00:04:17,106 that I need to engage more with my own family. 73 00:04:17,107 --> 00:04:21,060 I need to make more effort to try and show them 74 00:04:21,061 --> 00:04:24,086 the good sides of Islam, the things that they might like. 75 00:04:25,122 --> 00:04:30,082 So what happened next was a complete shock. 76 00:04:30,083 --> 00:04:32,139 REPORTER: Richard Dart, a white Muslim convert 77 00:04:32,140 --> 00:04:34,092 from a Dorset seaside town, 78 00:04:34,093 --> 00:04:36,088 was jailed today for six years. 79 00:04:36,089 --> 00:04:40,153 ♪ I hurt myself today... ♪ 80 00:04:40,154 --> 00:04:43,115 Dart was heard saying that things had to be done. 81 00:04:45,124 --> 00:04:47,107 These were serious individuals. 82 00:04:47,108 --> 00:04:49,136 They talked about how to make explosives 83 00:04:49,137 --> 00:04:51,113 using home-made chemicals, 84 00:04:51,114 --> 00:04:54,078 and their intent was to commit terrorist attacks overseas. 85 00:04:54,079 --> 00:04:58,091 ♪ What have I become? ♪ 86 00:04:58,092 --> 00:05:01,140 Today is 25th April, 2013, 87 00:05:01,141 --> 00:05:04,125 and Rich has just been sentenced 88 00:05:04,126 --> 00:05:09,115 to six years in prison for preparing to commit acts of terror. 89 00:05:14,093 --> 00:05:16,100 The really poignant thing for me 90 00:05:16,101 --> 00:05:19,113 is the idea that two weeks before he was arrested, 91 00:05:19,114 --> 00:05:22,082 I was sitting in a coffee shop with him in Ealing. 92 00:05:22,083 --> 00:05:25,115 And in retrospect, now, 93 00:05:25,116 --> 00:05:31,121 I know that he was planning on going to Pakistan 94 00:05:31,122 --> 00:05:33,129 and not necessarily intending on coming back. 95 00:05:33,130 --> 00:05:36,174 The court heard his plans to go to Pakistan, 96 00:05:36,175 --> 00:05:42,096 near the Afghan border, to seek terror training with the Taliban. 97 00:05:42,097 --> 00:05:43,128 I'm shocked. 98 00:05:43,129 --> 00:05:47,121 Partly, I'm angry because Richard has ended up doing what he's done 99 00:05:47,122 --> 00:05:51,171 and having the extreme beliefs that he has. 100 00:05:51,172 --> 00:05:57,084 And part of me is quite angry about that, but I don't really know... 101 00:05:57,085 --> 00:05:59,158 I don't really know who to blame for that. 102 00:06:01,147 --> 00:06:05,087 I want to figure out what's happening, what is going on. 103 00:06:05,088 --> 00:06:08,128 How is it allowed to happen? How can it happen? 104 00:06:08,129 --> 00:06:10,176 What is it people are drawn to? 105 00:06:10,177 --> 00:06:14,118 And what can be done, potentially, to stop it from happening? 106 00:06:17,183 --> 00:06:21,104 Now that he's been sentenced, I want to speak to him. 107 00:06:21,105 --> 00:06:23,124 Part of me just wants to say hi, 108 00:06:23,125 --> 00:06:27,162 and, um, have a laugh with him, because we always had a laugh. 109 00:06:32,136 --> 00:06:34,168 And the other half wants to ask him. 110 00:06:36,133 --> 00:06:40,134 "How could you think that you were doing the right thing?" 111 00:06:45,164 --> 00:06:49,172 A few weeks later, something else made me even more determined. 112 00:06:49,173 --> 00:06:51,133 What happened yesterday 113 00:06:51,134 --> 00:06:54,109 in Woolwich has sickened us all. 114 00:06:54,110 --> 00:06:58,179 On our televisions last night, and in our newspapers this morning, 115 00:06:58,180 --> 00:07:02,128 we have all seen images that are deeply shocking. 116 00:07:02,129 --> 00:07:04,164 I apologise that women had to witness this today. 117 00:07:04,165 --> 00:07:06,189 But in our lands, our women have to see the same. 118 00:07:06,190 --> 00:07:08,126 You people will never be safe. 119 00:07:08,127 --> 00:07:10,166 Remove your government, they don't care about you. 120 00:07:10,167 --> 00:07:14,191 Like Rich, Michael Adebolajo was a regular at protests, 121 00:07:14,192 --> 00:07:16,204 organised by Anjem Choudary. 122 00:07:16,205 --> 00:07:20,142 I'd be surprised if he and Rich didn't know each other. 123 00:07:24,195 --> 00:07:28,197 Several of Rich's Islamist brothers have since ended up behind bars. 124 00:07:43,169 --> 00:07:45,169 Often in the wings was Choudary, 125 00:07:45,170 --> 00:07:50,134 now dubbed by many papers as the most hated man in Britain. 126 00:07:50,135 --> 00:07:53,139 All of you are in one camp, the camp of non-Islam. 127 00:07:53,140 --> 00:07:55,208 If I'm judged an apostate by a sharia judge, 128 00:07:55,209 --> 00:07:58,133 would I be executed in your caliphate? 129 00:07:58,134 --> 00:08:00,213 You know that you have left the deen of Islam because... 130 00:08:00,214 --> 00:08:04,210 Anjem was master of ceremonies at Rich's conversion, 131 00:08:04,211 --> 00:08:07,215 as well as being a leader of Al-Muhajiroun, 132 00:08:07,216 --> 00:08:11,173 the now banned radical Islamist group he had embraced. 133 00:08:11,174 --> 00:08:13,201 The people that I study with and myself, 134 00:08:13,202 --> 00:08:15,202 we have a different belief in a sense 135 00:08:15,203 --> 00:08:18,147 to what many other Muslims seem to believe. 136 00:08:18,148 --> 00:08:20,151 You're jihadists? 137 00:08:20,152 --> 00:08:22,216 Yeah, absolutely, I support the concept of jihad 138 00:08:22,217 --> 00:08:24,144 as part of being a Muslim. 139 00:08:24,145 --> 00:08:26,181 It's very important that sharia is implemented 140 00:08:26,182 --> 00:08:29,142 and I support it wholeheartedly. 141 00:08:29,143 --> 00:08:32,163 To his followers, Anjem is a father figure, 142 00:08:32,164 --> 00:08:34,223 a charismatic preacher and mentor 143 00:08:34,224 --> 00:08:37,144 responsible for helping to shape the values 144 00:08:37,145 --> 00:08:40,157 and beliefs of those who look up to him. 145 00:08:40,158 --> 00:08:42,138 He talks a good talk. 146 00:08:42,139 --> 00:08:44,146 I'm not saying he intends it, 147 00:08:44,147 --> 00:08:47,188 but some of those who listen end up behind bars. 148 00:08:49,169 --> 00:08:51,229 Anjem has always kept himself out of trouble. 149 00:08:51,230 --> 00:08:56,150 Will you apologise? Radicalisation is calling for the sharia nowadays. 150 00:08:56,151 --> 00:08:58,215 Radicalisation is exposing the British government, 151 00:08:58,216 --> 00:09:01,196 radicalisation is commanding good and forbidding evil. 152 00:09:01,197 --> 00:09:02,236 We say, and we've always said, 153 00:09:02,237 --> 00:09:05,169 that we live here under a covenant of security. 154 00:09:05,170 --> 00:09:07,205 It's not allowed to target innocent people, 155 00:09:07,206 --> 00:09:09,214 in return for our life and wealth being secure 156 00:09:09,215 --> 00:09:12,155 and we've said that over the years... 157 00:09:12,156 --> 00:09:15,168 He also believes in this thing called a covenant of security, 158 00:09:15,169 --> 00:09:18,169 which forbids attacking the country he's living in, 159 00:09:18,170 --> 00:09:20,170 if it isn't openly attacking him. 160 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,164 I'm keen to revisit some of the people and places I came across 161 00:09:31,165 --> 00:09:32,234 in my first film. 162 00:09:34,238 --> 00:09:40,211 First up is an old acquaintance, convert Abdullah Deen. 163 00:09:40,212 --> 00:09:42,241 [He chants] 164 00:09:44,181 --> 00:09:47,225 I first met Abdullah at another protest, four years ago, 165 00:09:47,226 --> 00:09:50,206 when he was a relatively new convert. 166 00:09:50,207 --> 00:09:52,199 What brought me to Islam 167 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,244 was that my sister died of a cocaine overdose, 168 00:09:55,245 --> 00:09:59,237 in this society, at the age of 18. And I say that if this society 169 00:09:59,238 --> 00:10:01,241 is prepared to look after the youngsters, 170 00:10:01,242 --> 00:10:04,198 then you have to look after these people in this society 171 00:10:04,199 --> 00:10:06,191 and not introduce them to that lifestyle. 172 00:10:06,192 --> 00:10:09,196 An active supporter at Islamist protests, 173 00:10:09,197 --> 00:10:13,189 Abdullah Deen also had his own perfume range. 174 00:10:13,190 --> 00:10:15,190 This is the business side of Abdullah Deen. 175 00:10:15,191 --> 00:10:16,246 This is your trade? 176 00:10:16,247 --> 00:10:18,223 Yes, I have a wife to look after. 177 00:10:18,224 --> 00:10:21,191 We got to know each other through Rich 178 00:10:21,192 --> 00:10:24,228 and to my surprise, I found I really quite liked him. 179 00:10:24,229 --> 00:10:26,169 See you later. Hopefully, 180 00:10:26,170 --> 00:10:29,166 Allah will guide you and open your heart, Insha'Allah. 181 00:10:29,167 --> 00:10:31,234 But it's nice to see you again, as always, man. 182 00:10:31,235 --> 00:10:34,179 It's been a few years since we last hung out. 183 00:10:34,180 --> 00:10:36,233 But I want to find out what he thinks about Rich. 184 00:10:41,234 --> 00:10:42,243 Good. 185 00:10:48,269 --> 00:10:52,257 I'm at an Islamist protest outside the Iranian embassy. 186 00:10:52,258 --> 00:10:56,210 It's been a while since I've seen so many beards and burkas. 187 00:10:56,211 --> 00:10:58,199 I'm feeling quite nostalgic. 188 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,208 Iranian government, go to hell! Iranian government, go to hell! 189 00:11:02,209 --> 00:11:04,260 But no time for reminiscing - 190 00:11:04,261 --> 00:11:08,222 I'm keen to speak to Abdullah, and he's quick to defend Rich. 191 00:11:08,223 --> 00:11:11,186 What is apparent is that there's no evidence 192 00:11:11,187 --> 00:11:13,195 to say that he had any plan in place, 193 00:11:13,196 --> 00:11:15,276 no evidence to say any plan was being executed, 194 00:11:15,277 --> 00:11:19,201 or even near to being executed, you know. 195 00:11:19,202 --> 00:11:20,257 Me, myself, I've never fought, 196 00:11:20,258 --> 00:11:24,222 but to the West, I'd probably be considered a terrorist. 197 00:11:24,223 --> 00:11:27,203 Not because of my fighting or blowing myself up, 198 00:11:27,204 --> 00:11:28,272 but just the idea that I carry 199 00:11:28,273 --> 00:11:31,224 that only Allah's law has the right to be on earth. 200 00:11:31,225 --> 00:11:34,209 And the Muslims have the right to defend themselves 201 00:11:34,210 --> 00:11:36,270 against the foreign occupation from the West. 202 00:11:36,271 --> 00:11:40,247 I believe it's another way to try and stop the call of Islam, 203 00:11:40,248 --> 00:11:43,256 to stop the establishment of an Islamic state on the Earth. 204 00:11:43,257 --> 00:11:46,213 'It's not surprising to me 205 00:11:46,214 --> 00:11:48,283 'that Abdullah Deen thinks Rich is innocent. 206 00:11:50,247 --> 00:11:54,223 'But I can't argue with the fact that he pleaded guilty. 207 00:11:54,224 --> 00:11:56,224 'I'd seen him just weeks before his arrest, 208 00:11:56,225 --> 00:12:00,266 'and we'd talked about the future, and his plans to start a business. 209 00:12:01,290 --> 00:12:04,194 'It was no more than a cover story. 210 00:12:04,195 --> 00:12:07,227 'I can't get my head around the fact that he must have known 211 00:12:07,228 --> 00:12:10,209 'it might have been the last time we ever met. 212 00:12:13,202 --> 00:12:16,222 'I really felt like we'd come a long way 213 00:12:16,223 --> 00:12:18,246 'and that things were on the mend. 214 00:12:18,247 --> 00:12:21,275 'I'm angry, but it's hard to make sense of things 215 00:12:21,276 --> 00:12:23,269 'through a wall of silence. 216 00:12:24,265 --> 00:12:27,250 'I hope I can visit him in prison.' 217 00:12:34,232 --> 00:12:37,268 I don't want to speak to pundits or politicians. 218 00:12:37,269 --> 00:12:40,221 I feel like I've heard it all before, 219 00:12:40,222 --> 00:12:42,227 and we're still in this mess. 220 00:12:43,263 --> 00:12:45,304 I want some fresh perspectives. 221 00:12:47,276 --> 00:12:49,208 Hello. 222 00:12:49,209 --> 00:12:50,228 Lewis, how are you doing? 223 00:12:50,229 --> 00:12:52,297 Very well. Good to meet you. How are you doing, Robb? Not bad. 224 00:12:52,298 --> 00:12:54,225 Come on in. 225 00:12:54,226 --> 00:12:58,258 'After seeing my first film and hearing about Rich's conviction, 226 00:12:58,259 --> 00:13:00,255 'PhD student Lewis Herrington 227 00:13:00,256 --> 00:13:03,272 'has invited me over for an intelligence debrief.' 228 00:13:03,273 --> 00:13:07,298 This is literally where I do all my work. 229 00:13:09,251 --> 00:13:12,291 'He certainly takes his research seriously. 230 00:13:12,292 --> 00:13:14,292 'I feel like I'm in an episode of CSI.' 231 00:13:17,217 --> 00:13:20,237 Islamic fundamentalism is essentially an ideology, 232 00:13:20,238 --> 00:13:23,270 separate in a sense from Islam itself. 233 00:13:23,271 --> 00:13:25,223 In trying to understand 234 00:13:25,224 --> 00:13:27,303 what I refer to as the UK Islamist movement, 235 00:13:27,304 --> 00:13:30,272 I've separated people who are involved in this. 236 00:13:30,273 --> 00:13:35,294 You know, I can readily identify preachers, fundraisers, 237 00:13:35,295 --> 00:13:40,239 jihadists, facilitators, and terrorists. 238 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:41,251 Can I just ask? Mmm. 239 00:13:41,252 --> 00:13:45,241 You have Richard as a jihadist, not a terrorist. 240 00:13:45,242 --> 00:13:51,290 Yeah, this is a really fundamental distinction between terrorists, 241 00:13:51,291 --> 00:13:54,275 and, um, jihadists, 242 00:13:54,276 --> 00:13:57,308 because a great number of young British Muslim lads 243 00:13:57,309 --> 00:14:00,265 are very empathic about what's going on 244 00:14:00,266 --> 00:14:03,294 in various different conflicts all over the world. 245 00:14:03,295 --> 00:14:07,251 They hear stories given to them by Anjem Choudary 246 00:14:07,252 --> 00:14:09,256 about Indian troops, you know, 247 00:14:09,257 --> 00:14:11,316 raping and killing Muslims in Kashmir. 248 00:14:11,317 --> 00:14:13,273 And they want to sign up, 249 00:14:13,274 --> 00:14:18,326 they want to go out there and pro-actively defend fellow Muslims. 250 00:14:18,327 --> 00:14:21,291 They're not about to go and blow themselves up 251 00:14:21,292 --> 00:14:23,252 on the London Underground. 252 00:14:23,253 --> 00:14:25,309 That's not... that's not what they're thinking. 253 00:14:25,310 --> 00:14:28,297 Men like your brother, Richard Dart, 254 00:14:28,298 --> 00:14:31,302 from the available evidence, you know, wanted to go out, 255 00:14:31,303 --> 00:14:36,292 train as a Mujahideen, and fight predominantly in Afghanistan. 256 00:14:36,293 --> 00:14:41,241 'So in Lewis' mind, Rich isn't really a terrorist at all - 257 00:14:41,242 --> 00:14:43,330 'he wasn't planning on killing innocent civilians. 258 00:14:43,331 --> 00:14:46,315 'He wanted to go to Pakistan to fight on the battlefield 259 00:14:46,316 --> 00:14:49,261 'in what he believes to be a just war.' 260 00:14:52,334 --> 00:14:55,265 Next up, a video of another white convert 261 00:14:55,266 --> 00:14:57,267 who travelled all the way to Syria. 262 00:14:59,272 --> 00:15:01,275 ON VIDEO: '...helicopter shot down.' 263 00:15:01,276 --> 00:15:04,280 There you go, there's quite a similarity. 264 00:15:04,281 --> 00:15:08,289 White Muslim revert. These guys are over in Syria. 265 00:15:08,290 --> 00:15:10,294 They look like they're having a brilliant time. 266 00:15:10,295 --> 00:15:11,318 Having a whale of a time! 267 00:15:11,319 --> 00:15:14,307 He's having the time of his life. This is fantastic. 268 00:15:14,308 --> 00:15:17,348 You know, because if you are a fundamentalist Muslim, 269 00:15:17,349 --> 00:15:21,277 your day involves praying, you know, five times a day. 270 00:15:21,278 --> 00:15:27,275 There's no drinking, no smoking, no nightclubs. 271 00:15:27,276 --> 00:15:31,316 It tends to be spending a lot of time in the coffee shop 272 00:15:31,317 --> 00:15:34,317 and talking about jihad, 273 00:15:34,318 --> 00:15:37,290 talking about all these guys that are overseas, 274 00:15:37,291 --> 00:15:39,271 fighting for their Muslim brothers. 275 00:15:39,272 --> 00:15:44,268 How fantastically exciting a prospect that must be. 276 00:15:44,269 --> 00:15:47,306 I think that's ultimately where your brother wanted to go. 277 00:15:51,359 --> 00:15:55,332 'I can see the allure of foreign adventures with brothers-in-arms. 278 00:15:57,289 --> 00:16:01,325 'For someone with not much going on, it must be quite intoxicating.' 279 00:16:01,326 --> 00:16:06,267 That's what your brother wanted. To be that guy, I think. 280 00:16:06,268 --> 00:16:09,356 'Before I leave, I want to know what Lewis thinks about Anjem Choudary.' 281 00:16:09,357 --> 00:16:13,361 I think whenever you read his tweets and all his stuff, 282 00:16:13,362 --> 00:16:17,306 he deliberately tries to be as provocative as possible. 283 00:16:17,307 --> 00:16:20,351 I wouldn't be surprised if he was in Big Brother. 284 00:16:20,352 --> 00:16:22,292 I could literally just see that. 285 00:16:22,293 --> 00:16:26,353 Next year, Celebrity Big Brother, we've got Anjem Choudary. 286 00:16:26,354 --> 00:16:31,318 Drink and fornication aren't really Anjem's thing. 287 00:16:31,319 --> 00:16:35,347 But he does specialise in his own form of reality TV. 288 00:16:35,348 --> 00:16:40,305 For example, here is the actual moment he converted my stepbrother, 289 00:16:40,306 --> 00:16:43,362 recorded and broadcast to the world via YouTube. 290 00:16:43,363 --> 00:16:48,368 It's the last time I saw Rich, kafir-clad and without a beard. 291 00:16:50,313 --> 00:16:54,305 As a white convert, Rich was quite a catch, 292 00:16:54,306 --> 00:16:57,334 and Anjem made sure he got pride of place during media excursions. 293 00:16:57,335 --> 00:16:59,339 REPORTER: Choudary wants to establish 294 00:16:59,340 --> 00:17:02,296 an Islamic state in Britain. 295 00:17:02,297 --> 00:17:05,344 These men study under Choudary at the London School of Sharia. 296 00:17:05,345 --> 00:17:08,285 Salahuddin, formerly known as Richard, 297 00:17:08,286 --> 00:17:10,370 has been a Muslim for just five weeks. 298 00:17:10,371 --> 00:17:13,343 Choudary provided him with a certificate of conversion. 299 00:17:13,344 --> 00:17:17,316 Rich was no longer Rich. He was Salahuddin. 300 00:17:17,317 --> 00:17:22,306 If Salahuddin decides he no longer wishes to part of the faith, 301 00:17:22,307 --> 00:17:26,292 the penalty under full sharia law is death. 302 00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:30,368 Anjem's love of the media spotlight 303 00:17:30,369 --> 00:17:33,366 means he's really not that hard to get hold of. 304 00:17:34,362 --> 00:17:38,346 But I should have known we wouldn't be meeting in Starbucks. 305 00:17:38,347 --> 00:17:41,299 ♪ Just a perfect day... ♪ 306 00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:43,352 He requests that I book a conference room 307 00:17:43,353 --> 00:17:46,373 at a favourite travel hotel in Chingford. 308 00:17:46,374 --> 00:17:51,379 ♪ And then later, when it gets dark, we go home... ♪ 309 00:17:55,380 --> 00:17:58,305 [Knock at door] 310 00:18:04,303 --> 00:18:06,347 Hello, Robb. Hello. How's it going? Not bad. 311 00:18:06,348 --> 00:18:10,304 You've got the water out already. Yeah. I was going to have a latte, 312 00:18:10,305 --> 00:18:14,341 or a coffee. The coffee comes with the room, doesn't it? 313 00:18:14,342 --> 00:18:16,319 Yeah, yeah. Help yourself. 314 00:18:18,395 --> 00:18:22,383 Yes, Robb, so you want to become a Muslim? 315 00:18:22,384 --> 00:18:26,378 Um... I need some more time. 316 00:18:28,362 --> 00:18:32,358 What if you don't have any time? What if you get run over by a bus 317 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,369 when you leave the Holiday Express, and end up in the hellfire? 318 00:18:38,329 --> 00:18:39,398 Then so be it. 319 00:18:42,374 --> 00:18:44,351 Famous last words, eh? 320 00:18:46,344 --> 00:18:48,343 'It's a good start. 321 00:18:48,344 --> 00:18:50,340 'I want to ask Anjem what he knows 322 00:18:50,341 --> 00:18:53,377 'about Rich's plans to seek terror training in Pakistan.' 323 00:18:53,378 --> 00:18:58,322 Actually, I can't remember the last time that I saw him. 324 00:18:58,323 --> 00:19:01,363 Er, possibly around 2011, maybe 2012, um... 325 00:19:01,364 --> 00:19:07,413 Brother Salahuddin began, um, keeping himself more to himself, 326 00:19:07,414 --> 00:19:09,415 over the last couple of years. 327 00:19:11,339 --> 00:19:13,339 And obviously, I think he was arrested in, er, 328 00:19:13,340 --> 00:19:17,328 sometime in 2011, in July, was it? 329 00:19:17,329 --> 00:19:20,349 Or was it 2012? I can't remember. What's your take on that? 330 00:19:20,350 --> 00:19:23,366 If Brother Salahuddin was in fact going to Afghanistan 331 00:19:23,367 --> 00:19:25,354 to stand with his fellow Muslims 332 00:19:25,355 --> 00:19:26,415 to defend them from attack, 333 00:19:26,416 --> 00:19:29,424 by, you know, outsiders, be they Americans or British, 334 00:19:29,425 --> 00:19:33,369 then it's not something that is unusual. 335 00:19:33,370 --> 00:19:35,341 When you talk about Islam, 336 00:19:35,342 --> 00:19:37,422 I have to say that most of the Muslims I meet, 337 00:19:37,423 --> 00:19:39,407 they point the finger at you 338 00:19:39,408 --> 00:19:44,372 and say you're responsible for brainwashing people like Richard. 339 00:19:44,373 --> 00:19:46,389 Well, you know, if brains need to be washed, 340 00:19:46,390 --> 00:19:47,429 then surely it's a good thing? 341 00:19:47,430 --> 00:19:51,378 They're washed of the corruption and false ideas. 342 00:19:51,379 --> 00:19:54,363 I think we all need our thoughts washed from time to time. 343 00:19:54,364 --> 00:19:57,360 'Rich indeed moved away from East London 344 00:19:57,361 --> 00:19:59,349 'about a year before his arrest. 345 00:19:59,350 --> 00:20:02,349 'But I sense Anjem is using the opportunity 346 00:20:02,350 --> 00:20:04,342 'to get his message across. 347 00:20:04,343 --> 00:20:05,430 'And wow - what a message.' 348 00:20:05,431 --> 00:20:08,351 What's a true democracy? 349 00:20:08,352 --> 00:20:10,404 Maybe Germany under Hitler was a true democracy. 350 00:20:10,405 --> 00:20:13,353 No, that was a dictatorship. 351 00:20:13,354 --> 00:20:15,377 Oh, and Britain is not a dictatorship? 352 00:20:15,378 --> 00:20:21,387 It's not a dictatorship, and it's not... It's not Nazi Germany. 353 00:20:21,388 --> 00:20:24,388 It's as bad in many respects. 354 00:20:24,389 --> 00:20:26,425 It's not as bad. I mean, talk to the average Muslim 355 00:20:26,426 --> 00:20:30,406 about how he's stopped at the airport under the Terrorism Act... 356 00:20:30,407 --> 00:20:34,391 I speak to a lot of Muslims, and I understand it can be... 357 00:20:34,392 --> 00:20:37,356 I know it's difficult. ..Rummaging through your underwear, 358 00:20:37,357 --> 00:20:39,433 and all your personal belongings. I'm not saying it's right. 359 00:20:39,434 --> 00:20:41,389 That's as bad as Nazi Germany. 360 00:20:41,390 --> 00:20:44,390 You might as well be in a Nazi Germany concentration camp, 361 00:20:44,391 --> 00:20:46,427 when you come to Gatwick or Heathrow Airport, 362 00:20:46,428 --> 00:20:48,375 the way that they treat you. 363 00:20:48,376 --> 00:20:52,352 Like second-class citizens. Gatwick is nothing like Auschwitz. 364 00:20:52,353 --> 00:20:55,369 Well, you know, I mean, there's a lot of fabrication 365 00:20:55,370 --> 00:20:58,414 about what happened to people in Germany and, er, Austria. 366 00:20:58,415 --> 00:21:00,423 But the point is that Muslims are treated 367 00:21:00,424 --> 00:21:03,428 as if they're living in an apartheid state in Britain today. 368 00:21:03,429 --> 00:21:09,374 'Is this Holocaust denial? I'm not sure. But I'm completely astonished. 369 00:21:10,411 --> 00:21:15,375 'I accept that Anjem had no role in Rich's plans or terror training. 370 00:21:15,376 --> 00:21:17,396 'But he undoubtedly played a pivotal part 371 00:21:17,397 --> 00:21:19,449 'in developing Rich's extremist convictions.' 372 00:21:19,450 --> 00:21:21,450 It's been a pleasure. Thanks. 373 00:21:23,363 --> 00:21:26,371 Look forward to the day when you become a Muslim. 374 00:21:26,372 --> 00:21:28,444 Yeah, OK. Don't hold your breath. 375 00:21:32,425 --> 00:21:35,430 'As enigmatic as ever, he leaves me a little note. 376 00:21:37,375 --> 00:21:39,395 'But which one of us is talking rubbish? 377 00:21:41,420 --> 00:21:45,464 'In our post-interview photo shoot, I appeal to Anjem's playful nature 378 00:21:45,465 --> 00:21:48,410 'and offer to pose arm wrestling. 379 00:21:49,430 --> 00:21:53,451 'He seems intrigued by the prospect, and tells me he would beat me. 380 00:21:53,452 --> 00:21:56,396 'I tell him that it would be highly unlikely, 381 00:21:56,397 --> 00:21:59,456 'and ask him to put his money where his mouth is. 382 00:21:59,457 --> 00:22:04,406 'On this occasion, he is unwilling to take up the challenge. 383 00:22:04,407 --> 00:22:06,459 'However, he suggests it may be possible 384 00:22:06,460 --> 00:22:08,431 'at some point in the future. 385 00:22:08,432 --> 00:22:10,461 'I tell him I'll hold him to it. 386 00:22:13,414 --> 00:22:18,414 'I can't make my mind up about Anjem. Is he a joker? 387 00:22:18,415 --> 00:22:21,439 'Does he mean everything that comes out of his mouth? 388 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,468 'I get the argument about foreign policy 389 00:22:23,469 --> 00:22:25,452 'and agree with him on many things, 390 00:22:25,453 --> 00:22:29,413 'but there's always a point where he goes way too far. 391 00:22:29,414 --> 00:22:31,459 'For most of us, what he says is crazy.' 392 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,401 But his followers soak it up. 393 00:22:43,467 --> 00:22:45,442 I can think of one place 394 00:22:45,443 --> 00:22:48,444 that might shed some more light on Anjem and his friends. 395 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:54,417 East London Mosque has often been linked to extremism by the media, 396 00:22:54,418 --> 00:22:58,478 and has been the subject of more than one investigative documentary. 397 00:22:58,479 --> 00:23:01,479 It's a place Rich used to pray at sometimes. 398 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,433 Back then, I was never able to get access within its cloistered walls. 399 00:23:06,434 --> 00:23:10,422 It was an idea I gave up on. 400 00:23:10,423 --> 00:23:13,467 However, much can change in four years. 401 00:23:13,468 --> 00:23:15,399 Food raid! 402 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,437 It's 9pm, and it's Ramadan. I have struck up a friendship 403 00:23:20,438 --> 00:23:23,450 with the mosque's communication officer, Salman, 404 00:23:23,451 --> 00:23:24,491 and his friend, Tariq. 405 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,484 I join them for a rather belated breaking of the fast. 406 00:23:30,485 --> 00:23:35,421 It's been a long day without food and water... for them. 407 00:23:35,422 --> 00:23:37,462 This is apparently a "special iftar". 408 00:23:37,463 --> 00:23:39,410 No, it's not. 409 00:23:39,411 --> 00:23:40,471 Every household... 410 00:23:40,472 --> 00:23:42,491 All I care about, yeah, it says food, it says hot, 411 00:23:42,492 --> 00:23:45,453 and it says halal. That's it, I'm happy. 412 00:23:46,462 --> 00:23:49,429 [Doors closing] 413 00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:52,434 'It's late, so one of my friends leaves for home.' 414 00:23:52,435 --> 00:23:53,439 Take care. 415 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,439 'It's now just Salman and I to break fast.' 416 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,448 Oh, you're a weak vegetarian! 417 00:23:58,449 --> 00:24:00,501 'But I don't think Salman has invited me 418 00:24:00,502 --> 00:24:04,418 'into his office to talk about special iftars. 419 00:24:04,419 --> 00:24:07,439 'There is some Muslim fan mail he wants to show me.' 420 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,464 We have to deal with hate mail that comes through our doors. 421 00:24:11,465 --> 00:24:13,489 By far, this is light 422 00:24:13,490 --> 00:24:16,493 compared to some of the other stuff that's in here. 423 00:24:16,494 --> 00:24:18,490 Um... look at that. 424 00:24:18,491 --> 00:24:24,476 Someone's sent this CD here of pornographic content, 425 00:24:24,477 --> 00:24:27,417 to the mosque, 426 00:24:27,418 --> 00:24:29,505 thinking that one of our imams or someone unsuspecting 427 00:24:29,506 --> 00:24:30,510 is going to open it. 428 00:24:30,511 --> 00:24:33,471 How often do you receive these? 429 00:24:33,472 --> 00:24:37,424 When, let's say that a specific news story 430 00:24:37,425 --> 00:24:40,517 has run about the Muslim community 431 00:24:40,518 --> 00:24:44,502 in a negative and pejorative way, 432 00:24:44,503 --> 00:24:48,515 it just incites these individuals to send us hate mail. 433 00:24:48,516 --> 00:24:54,473 I guess Anjem Choudary is kind of held responsible for a lot of it? 434 00:24:54,474 --> 00:24:58,446 Yes, by all means. Every time he says something in the media, 435 00:24:58,447 --> 00:25:00,519 that kicks off tensions. 436 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,480 He gets prominence. I've spoken to journalists 437 00:25:04,481 --> 00:25:07,429 and they have him on speed-dial. 438 00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:11,458 When they need a nutty joke, you know, a nutty quote, 439 00:25:11,459 --> 00:25:14,483 they just quickly press the speed dial, and ask him 440 00:25:14,484 --> 00:25:16,491 "What do you think about this?" 441 00:25:16,492 --> 00:25:19,456 And he'll give them exactly what they want, 442 00:25:19,457 --> 00:25:21,457 and they've got their headline. 443 00:25:21,458 --> 00:25:23,506 'Conversation turns to Woolwich. 444 00:25:23,507 --> 00:25:27,447 'East London Mosque had strongly condemned the attack.' 445 00:25:27,448 --> 00:25:30,528 After we published our condemnation 446 00:25:30,529 --> 00:25:33,505 of the murder in Woolwich, 447 00:25:33,506 --> 00:25:37,462 an individual came to visit the mosque. 448 00:25:37,463 --> 00:25:42,479 He's coming after prayer and what he does is, 449 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,496 he comes to myself 450 00:25:44,497 --> 00:25:50,514 and one of the imams who is closely affiliated with this mosque 451 00:25:50,515 --> 00:25:53,527 and he starts a conversation with me, 452 00:25:53,528 --> 00:25:58,524 asking why we condemned the Woolwich killing and that's it, 453 00:25:58,525 --> 00:26:03,454 things started getting a bit heated from that moment on. 454 00:26:03,455 --> 00:26:08,455 'Another radical Islamist was about to make his entrance.' 455 00:26:08,456 --> 00:26:12,456 He called in one of his friends who's actually a revert. 456 00:26:12,457 --> 00:26:15,513 And he starts a conversation with me 457 00:26:15,514 --> 00:26:20,463 and to the imam, with no respect or any kind of decorum. 458 00:26:20,464 --> 00:26:23,484 Do you know them? Yeah. Oh, you know them? 459 00:26:23,485 --> 00:26:27,514 I'm not sure if it is, but it looks like Abdullah Deen. 460 00:26:30,495 --> 00:26:33,516 Ah, I think that's possibly his name. 461 00:26:36,496 --> 00:26:40,481 So, yeah, he came into the mosque 462 00:26:40,482 --> 00:26:43,514 and he was starting trouble. 463 00:26:43,515 --> 00:26:46,482 'It's my friend, Abdullah Deen, the perfume seller, 464 00:26:46,483 --> 00:26:49,551 'who we met earlier outside the Iranian embassy. 465 00:26:49,552 --> 00:26:54,486 'I must say I'm a little confused to see him taking on an entire mosque'. 466 00:26:56,550 --> 00:26:59,526 How do you get across to people like that? 467 00:26:59,527 --> 00:27:02,467 You know, how do you do it? 468 00:27:02,468 --> 00:27:06,492 It's tough. You know, everybody tends to blame the Muslim community. 469 00:27:06,493 --> 00:27:09,505 "You guys are not doing enough. It's your problem", 470 00:27:09,506 --> 00:27:12,498 blah, blah, blah. How do you get through to people 471 00:27:12,499 --> 00:27:14,511 who've gone that far down the line? 472 00:27:14,512 --> 00:27:17,476 How do you pull 'em out? You know? What do you do? 473 00:27:17,477 --> 00:27:22,525 Stick 'em into solitary confinement, what? You know. 474 00:27:22,526 --> 00:27:25,514 It's the million dollar question. That's it, really. 475 00:27:25,515 --> 00:27:29,495 And I don't think even sticking them into solitary confinement helps. 476 00:27:29,496 --> 00:27:34,477 You know? The members of the congregation just kicked them out. 477 00:27:34,478 --> 00:27:39,570 You see, that's community dealing with the problem. 478 00:27:39,571 --> 00:27:41,531 You know? They'll take action. 479 00:27:41,532 --> 00:27:44,568 They're not going to say "Hey, come in", you know, 480 00:27:44,569 --> 00:27:47,565 "How about you hang around a bit longer 481 00:27:47,566 --> 00:27:50,546 "and spew out more of your hatred?" 482 00:27:50,547 --> 00:27:53,478 No, you're seen as a problem. 483 00:27:53,479 --> 00:27:59,541 Get rid of you, you're not allowed to propagate any hate from here. 484 00:28:03,538 --> 00:28:06,514 And they know that if they don't leave, 485 00:28:06,515 --> 00:28:10,572 they will probably get thrown out physically. Removed? Yeah. 486 00:28:10,573 --> 00:28:13,572 'Abdullah disputed the mosque's point of view, 487 00:28:13,573 --> 00:28:16,509 'but didn't want to comment on it. 488 00:28:16,510 --> 00:28:18,566 'To see him kicking off at the mosque is surprising. 489 00:28:18,567 --> 00:28:21,567 'I have never seen him in this light before. 490 00:28:21,568 --> 00:28:24,568 'But then again, seeing this change in character 491 00:28:24,569 --> 00:28:27,502 'is something I know only too well. 492 00:28:28,558 --> 00:28:30,550 'One of the things that struck me most 493 00:28:30,551 --> 00:28:33,518 'about getting to know Rich and his friends 494 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:35,580 'was the contrast between scary and nice. 495 00:28:37,529 --> 00:28:40,545 'I often enjoyed hanging around with these guys. 496 00:28:40,546 --> 00:28:44,538 'They were very polite and good natured, sometimes even funny.' 497 00:28:44,539 --> 00:28:46,506 We're off. You're off? 498 00:28:46,507 --> 00:28:48,503 We're like bad eggs, we're off. 499 00:28:48,504 --> 00:28:51,504 'And then there was this kind of off-the-scale ranting 500 00:28:51,505 --> 00:28:53,541 'that would take me by surprise. 501 00:28:58,567 --> 00:29:02,535 'And their sense of superiority over us non-believers.' 502 00:29:02,536 --> 00:29:04,577 Burn, burn, USA! Burn, burn, USA! 503 00:29:09,510 --> 00:29:12,518 'If you were to ask any young Muslim where the hate comes from, 504 00:29:12,519 --> 00:29:15,567 'they'll probably tell you about foreign policy. 505 00:29:15,568 --> 00:29:20,505 'Western wars in Muslim lands are a hot topic among Islamic youth.' 506 00:29:20,506 --> 00:29:23,557 My stepbrother, Richard Dart, you may... 507 00:29:23,558 --> 00:29:26,590 Now I know, I recognise your face. My Brother The Islamist. 508 00:29:26,591 --> 00:29:33,520 I watched the documentary. It was, er, emotive, to be honest with you. 509 00:29:33,521 --> 00:29:36,565 He met some strange guys, I would say, 510 00:29:36,566 --> 00:29:41,515 and the thing is that to focus on them is very strange. 511 00:29:41,516 --> 00:29:44,600 If you spent your whole documentary focusing on the three guys he knew 512 00:29:44,601 --> 00:29:47,557 and not thinking about the wider world context 513 00:29:47,558 --> 00:29:50,533 that has bred this situation... 514 00:29:50,534 --> 00:29:52,558 Wherever you go, you'll hear the same thing. 515 00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:55,555 Any Muslim you speak to, go and ask any young guy out there, 516 00:29:55,556 --> 00:29:57,532 they will tell you what they see, 517 00:29:57,533 --> 00:29:58,592 constantly, day in, day out. 518 00:29:58,593 --> 00:30:01,613 They see what happens to their fellow Muslim brethren. 519 00:30:01,614 --> 00:30:05,534 You have to ask yourself, why is it that Muslims are so frustrated 520 00:30:05,535 --> 00:30:09,523 and can't do anything when they see their co-religionists being tortured 521 00:30:09,524 --> 00:30:11,616 and humiliated in disgusting and horrible ways on a mass level? 522 00:30:11,617 --> 00:30:14,553 'I'm always told it's the main reason 523 00:30:14,554 --> 00:30:16,593 'for the radicalisation of converts. 524 00:30:16,594 --> 00:30:19,554 'And it's always used to justify acts of terror 525 00:30:19,555 --> 00:30:20,599 'when they're committed. 526 00:30:22,608 --> 00:30:24,616 'I don't think it's all coincidence, 527 00:30:24,617 --> 00:30:27,545 'and it doesn't take much digging around 528 00:30:27,546 --> 00:30:31,539 'to see things that will make your blood boil. 529 00:30:33,595 --> 00:30:35,567 'This infamous leaked video 530 00:30:35,568 --> 00:30:38,544 'shows US forces gunning down a group of people, 531 00:30:38,545 --> 00:30:40,549 'which includes journalists. 532 00:30:44,543 --> 00:30:47,604 'To watch this makes me sick and incredibly angry. 533 00:30:50,612 --> 00:30:52,609 'But I'm no extremist. 534 00:30:55,602 --> 00:30:58,563 'Maybe it's time I consulted a psychologist... 535 00:31:01,576 --> 00:31:03,611 'An imam psychologist.' 536 00:31:03,612 --> 00:31:06,536 This is part of the crisis of the Muslim world... 537 00:31:06,537 --> 00:31:11,558 'Sorry, a fish and chip loving imam psychologist - Alyas Karmani. 538 00:31:11,559 --> 00:31:13,610 It's bizarre, it's such a Pakistani thing to do on a Friday, 539 00:31:13,611 --> 00:31:16,619 have fish and chips. Even from when I was a kid, 540 00:31:16,620 --> 00:31:18,616 we always had fish and chips. 541 00:31:18,617 --> 00:31:23,614 My mouth is watering, so we need to stop soon and get stuck in. 542 00:31:24,623 --> 00:31:26,627 How's the fish and chips? 543 00:31:28,620 --> 00:31:32,636 Pretty good. OK, good. Better than down south, eh? 544 00:31:32,637 --> 00:31:34,553 Oh, I wouldn't say that. 545 00:31:34,554 --> 00:31:35,617 OK, OK. 546 00:31:35,618 --> 00:31:39,638 I think there are some pretty good fish and chip shops in Weymouth. 547 00:31:39,639 --> 00:31:41,635 OK, uh-huh. 548 00:31:41,636 --> 00:31:45,552 'He has an interesting theory that draws comparison 549 00:31:45,553 --> 00:31:49,569 'between extremists on opposing ends of the shouty-shouty spectrum, 550 00:31:49,570 --> 00:31:50,621 'and how similar they really are'. 551 00:31:50,622 --> 00:31:53,610 One of the important things we're trying to show is that the process 552 00:31:53,611 --> 00:31:56,555 of someone becoming what you call a far-right extremist, 553 00:31:56,556 --> 00:31:58,596 it's a similar process for any other type of extremism. 554 00:31:58,597 --> 00:32:01,641 It's no different. And what it is, it's often young angry men, 555 00:32:01,642 --> 00:32:05,590 who feel very disaffected, they don't feel they've got a place in society, 556 00:32:05,591 --> 00:32:09,583 who feel there are things wrong. And they feel powerless. 557 00:32:09,584 --> 00:32:11,640 A lot of it is about being dis-empowered. And suddenly, 558 00:32:11,641 --> 00:32:15,581 the ideology gives them power. It gives them some kind of significance, 559 00:32:15,582 --> 00:32:16,605 some kind of importance. 560 00:32:16,606 --> 00:32:19,646 You'll also find that both sets of groups are authoritarian. 561 00:32:19,647 --> 00:32:24,604 They are kind of misogynistic, they see women's role as very subservient. 562 00:32:24,605 --> 00:32:26,616 You know, there are charismatic individuals 563 00:32:26,617 --> 00:32:29,657 who are involved in these groups who manage to connect with these guys, 564 00:32:29,658 --> 00:32:32,586 and provide them some kind of direction and focus. 565 00:32:32,587 --> 00:32:34,623 Those individuals have vulnerabilities. 566 00:32:34,624 --> 00:32:37,644 And they prey on those particular vulnerabilities 567 00:32:37,645 --> 00:32:39,620 to really entice those individuals 568 00:32:39,621 --> 00:32:41,617 into their particular kind of narrative. 569 00:32:41,618 --> 00:32:44,610 So regardless of whether you're on the extreme right, 570 00:32:44,611 --> 00:32:49,599 or if you're an Islamic extremist, 571 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,644 those people have gone through a similar process 572 00:32:53,645 --> 00:32:57,589 and have had similar stories? That's right, yeah. 573 00:32:57,590 --> 00:32:59,646 You'll find similar stories. You'll find it like, 574 00:32:59,647 --> 00:33:02,639 "I didn't fit in in society, I was bullied when I was young". 575 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,632 Issues around emotional well-being. 576 00:33:04,633 --> 00:33:07,644 You've got individuals with issues around psychological trauma. 577 00:33:07,645 --> 00:33:10,633 Sometimes they've been the victims of violence themselves. 578 00:33:10,634 --> 00:33:12,666 Sometimes being in a dysfunctional family, 579 00:33:12,667 --> 00:33:15,603 I mean, not having a father figure sometimes. 580 00:33:15,604 --> 00:33:18,632 All of these are similar issues that they have experienced. 581 00:33:18,633 --> 00:33:19,652 But guess what? 582 00:33:19,653 --> 00:33:21,649 Becoming a warrior, 583 00:33:21,650 --> 00:33:26,666 and becoming someone who is a champion for their race, 584 00:33:26,667 --> 00:33:29,611 does bolster their self-esteem. 585 00:33:29,612 --> 00:33:33,613 'I guess you really do have to be lost to be found. 586 00:33:37,662 --> 00:33:41,599 'I can definitely see parallels in what Alyas is describing 587 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,664 'and Rich's own life. His dad left the country 588 00:33:44,665 --> 00:33:47,664 'when he was quite young, and when he grew up, 589 00:33:47,665 --> 00:33:51,638 'he always admitted he didn't quite fit in with society.' 590 00:33:51,639 --> 00:33:54,663 I remember one time, I went to a McDonald's in France, 591 00:33:54,664 --> 00:33:58,664 and they literally got Eminem, and a rapper called Nate Dogg, 592 00:33:58,665 --> 00:34:01,665 talking about illicit sexual intercourse and swearing. 593 00:34:01,666 --> 00:34:03,625 And it's not being censored at all. 594 00:34:03,626 --> 00:34:05,654 And you've got little kids running around there. 595 00:34:05,655 --> 00:34:07,606 You know, it's quite shocking. 596 00:34:07,607 --> 00:34:09,599 Even then, I was a non-Muslim, 597 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,632 but obviously you have that Fitrah of commanding good, forbidding evil. 598 00:34:12,633 --> 00:34:15,613 And I was quite outspoken about it. I was like "What's going on? 599 00:34:15,614 --> 00:34:17,774 "This is terrible that this kind of thing is going on". 600 00:34:20,635 --> 00:34:25,660 A few days later, and I'm mingling with tourists on Tower Bridge. 601 00:34:25,661 --> 00:34:29,634 But it's not the boat regatta I'm here to see. 602 00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:35,639 I'm here for another very different British pastime... 603 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,696 Protesting. 604 00:34:43,634 --> 00:34:47,614 The English Defence League are staging a rather boisterous protest. 605 00:34:47,615 --> 00:34:49,683 Back off, back off! 606 00:34:49,684 --> 00:34:51,656 Move, or I'll move ya! 607 00:34:51,657 --> 00:34:52,684 Fucking scum, the lot of ya. 608 00:34:52,685 --> 00:34:54,701 That's not very nice, mate. 609 00:34:54,702 --> 00:34:57,609 [Bleep] 610 00:34:57,610 --> 00:34:59,655 'They really are a charming lot. 611 00:35:02,620 --> 00:35:03,659 'But I'm not here to mingle. 612 00:35:03,660 --> 00:35:07,676 'I'm here to speak with Tommy Robinson - their leader. 613 00:35:07,677 --> 00:35:10,645 What do you think about young British people 614 00:35:10,646 --> 00:35:12,626 that have been radicalised? 615 00:35:12,627 --> 00:35:15,647 Young British people? Yeah, my stepbrother was radicalised. 616 00:35:15,648 --> 00:35:17,707 Oh, how are you doing? You're Richard Dart's brother. 617 00:35:17,708 --> 00:35:19,700 Er, I think that ideology... you see, 618 00:35:19,701 --> 00:35:22,677 what has been done since that happened to your step-brother? 619 00:35:22,678 --> 00:35:26,614 Now he's in jail on terrorism, what's being done to tackle that ideology? 620 00:35:26,615 --> 00:35:28,659 What are the government doing to address that ideology? 621 00:35:28,660 --> 00:35:31,664 What are the Islamic community doing to address that Da'Wah 622 00:35:31,665 --> 00:35:33,668 on the streets of our country? Nothing. 623 00:35:33,669 --> 00:35:36,713 What do you think it is that causes people to become radicalised, then? 624 00:35:36,714 --> 00:35:39,658 It's a powerful, powerful ideology within Islam, 625 00:35:39,659 --> 00:35:41,639 and it's a togetherness, a brotherhood. 626 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,703 Straight-away, you belong. Straight-away, you belong. 627 00:35:43,704 --> 00:35:45,700 So I don't know what your brother was like. 628 00:35:45,701 --> 00:35:47,716 But the majority of these people are lonesome, 629 00:35:47,717 --> 00:35:49,701 and don't really have a belonging in life, 630 00:35:49,702 --> 00:35:51,662 don't have a big community feeling. 631 00:35:51,663 --> 00:35:54,674 And they're taken into that, and straight-away, it's "Wow". 632 00:35:54,675 --> 00:35:57,683 And then they're manipulated and manipulated and manipulated. 633 00:35:57,684 --> 00:36:03,673 Do you not think that sometimes, this results in more radicalisation? 634 00:36:03,674 --> 00:36:07,694 Mate, we started four years ago, yeah? And every on year on year, 635 00:36:07,695 --> 00:36:11,640 this radicalisation has been going on for 1,400 years, know what I mean? 636 00:36:11,641 --> 00:36:14,696 You're not going to blame us for 9/11, as well are you? Or 7/7? 637 00:36:14,697 --> 00:36:17,637 Or the Beslan massacre, was that our fault? 638 00:36:17,638 --> 00:36:19,642 It doesn't mean we hate all Muslims. 639 00:36:19,643 --> 00:36:22,695 It just means there's an Islamist problem, there's a problem 640 00:36:22,696 --> 00:36:24,723 when it comes down to manipulating people's minds, 641 00:36:24,724 --> 00:36:27,684 and what is being done to protect those people? 642 00:36:27,685 --> 00:36:30,693 'He's not likely to find a job as a diplomat, 643 00:36:30,694 --> 00:36:34,690 'but like Alyas, Tommy does have a point. 644 00:36:34,691 --> 00:36:38,652 'Young people perhaps lacking identity or direction in life 645 00:36:38,653 --> 00:36:41,661 'are incredibly vulnerable to being sold big ideas 646 00:36:41,662 --> 00:36:42,725 'and the sense of belonging 647 00:36:42,726 --> 00:36:46,682 'that being part of a radical movement provides. 648 00:36:46,683 --> 00:36:49,671 No surrender! No surrender to the Taliban! 649 00:36:49,672 --> 00:36:51,660 Scum! Scum! Scum! 650 00:36:51,661 --> 00:36:54,685 And like Rich, they are easily manipulated. 651 00:36:56,670 --> 00:37:00,650 Murderers! Murderers! 652 00:37:00,651 --> 00:37:03,719 Alyas, the fish and chip imam from Bradford, 653 00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:08,721 has invited me and some friends to join him in a "thought experiment". 654 00:37:08,722 --> 00:37:12,742 But first, there is some BBC paperwork to fill in. 655 00:37:12,743 --> 00:37:18,652 Can you think of the kind of hazards involved in this thought experiment? 656 00:37:18,653 --> 00:37:21,649 How could you put that in a risk assessment? 657 00:37:21,650 --> 00:37:22,746 "Hazard - radicalisation". 658 00:37:24,722 --> 00:37:27,707 "Hazard - radicalisation"! 659 00:37:29,692 --> 00:37:33,740 'He says he can show us how easy it can be to become radicalised. 660 00:37:33,741 --> 00:37:37,729 'But he hasn't met my PC middle-class friends before.' 661 00:37:37,730 --> 00:37:40,694 How many people in Britain are of the view that those four - 662 00:37:40,695 --> 00:37:43,691 "Actually, nah, they don't represent the 2 million Muslims in the UK. 663 00:37:43,692 --> 00:37:45,728 "They're nothing to do with that, they're crackpots". 664 00:37:45,729 --> 00:37:47,665 How many people have that view? 665 00:37:48,734 --> 00:37:51,702 Which view? 666 00:37:51,703 --> 00:37:54,690 That they're the minority, they don't represent... Yeah. 667 00:37:54,691 --> 00:37:56,731 Honestly? Do you actually think that? 668 00:37:56,732 --> 00:37:59,712 I'm just, um, yeah, I reckon... 669 00:37:59,713 --> 00:38:02,705 Yeah, I honestly believe that.. 670 00:38:02,706 --> 00:38:06,750 'They're not going to make easy fundamentalists.' 671 00:38:06,751 --> 00:38:10,691 I want you to imagine you're a young Muslim growing up in Britain, 672 00:38:10,692 --> 00:38:11,760 in your early twenties, 673 00:38:11,761 --> 00:38:17,673 and after ten years of non-stop War on Islam in the media... 674 00:38:17,674 --> 00:38:19,734 People access a different media. 675 00:38:19,735 --> 00:38:20,758 You've already got no hope 676 00:38:20,759 --> 00:38:23,723 or credibility in the mainstream media. 677 00:38:23,724 --> 00:38:26,668 I'm going to look for an alternative media that gives me 678 00:38:26,669 --> 00:38:29,729 the issues from the perspective that I want. So you go looking for that. 679 00:38:29,730 --> 00:38:31,762 Where are you going to look for that media? 680 00:38:31,763 --> 00:38:33,678 The internet. 681 00:38:33,679 --> 00:38:36,751 Yeah, and on the internet, whose narrative is it? 682 00:38:36,752 --> 00:38:39,760 That's the whole thing. 683 00:38:39,761 --> 00:38:40,765 Whose truth is it? 684 00:38:52,749 --> 00:38:55,765 'Despite my friends' stoic determination, 685 00:38:55,766 --> 00:38:59,762 'it's hard not to be affected by the imagery that Alyas is showing us.' 686 00:38:59,763 --> 00:39:04,736 A particular mindset is exposed to that, immersed in it. 687 00:39:06,737 --> 00:39:09,773 Alongside a very powerful narrative, 688 00:39:09,774 --> 00:39:13,710 which is basically, "Look what's happening to us". 689 00:39:13,711 --> 00:39:15,755 We become desensitised to violence. 690 00:39:15,756 --> 00:39:18,744 If I can add, very charismatically, a few verses from the Koran, 691 00:39:18,745 --> 00:39:20,764 "We've got to fight jihad, guys". 692 00:39:20,765 --> 00:39:25,722 "We've got to, and if you're martyrs... and the glory of Islam, 693 00:39:25,723 --> 00:39:28,751 "and the glory of sacrificing our lives to save others..." 694 00:39:28,752 --> 00:39:30,703 For someone who's nothing, 695 00:39:30,704 --> 00:39:33,720 you know what, who feels "Society has pissed all over me. 696 00:39:33,721 --> 00:39:36,773 "But you know what? I can have the glory of being a warrior." 697 00:39:36,774 --> 00:39:41,730 This is where Richard's case is really... that's why I'm doing this, 698 00:39:41,731 --> 00:39:46,700 because this is about vulnerability. There's vulnerable people out there. 699 00:39:46,701 --> 00:39:49,697 The environment is so, I could say so fertile, 700 00:39:49,698 --> 00:39:53,746 for you to do that radicalisation, creating the anger, 701 00:39:53,747 --> 00:39:55,779 the frustration, the sense of despair.. 702 00:39:55,780 --> 00:39:57,740 It's really easy. 703 00:39:58,765 --> 00:40:01,696 I sense that Alyas has struck a chord. 704 00:40:01,697 --> 00:40:04,733 Yeah, I still don't think I'd ever see violence as an answer. 705 00:40:04,734 --> 00:40:05,794 Maybe not. 706 00:40:05,795 --> 00:40:08,711 Thanks, I hope that's been quite useful. 707 00:40:08,712 --> 00:40:11,715 My friends haven't been radicalised. 708 00:40:11,716 --> 00:40:14,756 But then again, they're not really vulnerable, 709 00:40:14,757 --> 00:40:16,745 which I guess is the point. 710 00:40:16,746 --> 00:40:19,762 Yeah, I find it hard to understand how, still. 711 00:40:19,763 --> 00:40:22,711 From Richard's point of view, let's say, 712 00:40:22,712 --> 00:40:24,775 he's had a very similar identity to what we've got. 713 00:40:24,776 --> 00:40:28,773 To go from that to that just by being exposed to that, 714 00:40:28,774 --> 00:40:32,706 I don't think it sits right. There's obviously something else... 715 00:40:32,707 --> 00:40:35,755 My friends can't get around how a simple lack of identity 716 00:40:35,756 --> 00:40:37,795 can cause somebody to go so far. 717 00:40:37,796 --> 00:40:39,800 And I agree. 718 00:40:39,801 --> 00:40:41,768 A charismatic preacher 719 00:40:41,769 --> 00:40:45,735 and the effect of foreign policy may also be part of the deal. 720 00:40:51,792 --> 00:40:55,753 But there is someone else who I want to meet, with a very personal story 721 00:40:55,754 --> 00:40:57,785 that doesn't quite fit the mould. 722 00:40:57,786 --> 00:41:01,767 The police came and told us of his arrest just before midnight. 723 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,812 I'll never forget the shock I felt on hearing the news. 724 00:41:06,813 --> 00:41:09,777 I could not believe that my son 725 00:41:09,778 --> 00:41:12,723 could be involved in something like this. 726 00:41:13,755 --> 00:41:18,772 Vicki Ibrahim's son, Andy, didn't have anyone to radicalise him. 727 00:41:18,773 --> 00:41:21,784 It happened all alone, through the internet. 728 00:41:21,785 --> 00:41:26,726 Cos he was spending so long on PC games, 729 00:41:26,727 --> 00:41:29,751 he didn't really go out with friends very much at all. 730 00:41:29,752 --> 00:41:31,811 We realised he hadn't been 731 00:41:31,812 --> 00:41:34,804 talking to people at the mosques about things, 732 00:41:34,805 --> 00:41:39,810 but he had been spending enormous amounts of time on the internet, 733 00:41:39,811 --> 00:41:45,736 looking at what people would call radical or extremist sites. 734 00:41:45,737 --> 00:41:51,729 He had done a reconnaissance of a shopping mall in Bristol, 735 00:41:51,730 --> 00:41:55,815 he had bought bottles of peroxide, 736 00:41:55,816 --> 00:41:59,740 and these were stored in his flat. 737 00:41:59,741 --> 00:42:04,785 He had made some HMTD, which he stored in the refrigerator. 738 00:42:04,786 --> 00:42:07,766 What's HMTD? Explosive chemical. 739 00:42:07,767 --> 00:42:11,804 We only discovered all this after his arrest. 740 00:42:15,746 --> 00:42:18,761 Andy was stopped before he got a chance to kill. 741 00:42:18,762 --> 00:42:22,783 But his actions still led to him being convicted as a terrorist. 742 00:42:22,784 --> 00:42:24,776 He's now in prison. 743 00:42:25,789 --> 00:42:28,756 I wish we could go back five years, 744 00:42:28,757 --> 00:42:30,810 and none of this had happened. 745 00:42:37,808 --> 00:42:40,761 It's very hard to deal with it. 746 00:42:41,769 --> 00:42:44,794 Five years on, it's still very painful for all of us. 747 00:42:48,775 --> 00:42:52,769 I'm reminded of the devastating effect this stuff has on families. 748 00:42:54,769 --> 00:42:58,769 I wonder what kind of material Andy might have been looking at. 749 00:42:58,770 --> 00:43:02,831 This highly disturbing recruitment video was made by Al-Shabaab 750 00:43:02,832 --> 00:43:05,764 and aimed at British Muslims. 751 00:43:05,765 --> 00:43:06,808 It quickly went viral. 752 00:43:06,809 --> 00:43:08,820 The mujahideen of Woolwich, Mohammed Merah 753 00:43:08,821 --> 00:43:11,825 Nidal Hassan, Farooq Abdulmutallib, 754 00:43:11,826 --> 00:43:14,846 they all saw themselves as part of a bigger struggle. 755 00:43:14,847 --> 00:43:17,815 A struggle for the dominance of Allah's law on earth 756 00:43:17,816 --> 00:43:19,852 and the establishment of his Sharia. 757 00:43:19,853 --> 00:43:21,816 So if it's impossible for you 758 00:43:21,817 --> 00:43:23,833 to make it safely to any of the lands of jihad, 759 00:43:23,834 --> 00:43:26,794 then follow the example of your brothers in Woolwich, 760 00:43:26,795 --> 00:43:28,802 Toulouse, Texas and Boston. 761 00:43:28,803 --> 00:43:31,803 The internet can be a dangerous place. 762 00:43:31,804 --> 00:43:33,809 It's deeply shocking. 763 00:43:36,806 --> 00:43:41,762 Abdullah Deen, the star of East London Mosque CCTV, 764 00:43:41,763 --> 00:43:43,815 has agreed to meet up for a stroll. 765 00:43:43,816 --> 00:43:45,853 I used to have TV. 766 00:43:47,781 --> 00:43:50,769 You know when you get TV, then you buy the Sky, 767 00:43:50,770 --> 00:43:52,842 you buy the Sky, you get tempted by the movie packages, 768 00:43:52,843 --> 00:43:54,786 you get the movie packages, 769 00:43:54,787 --> 00:43:56,791 you watch a film, you try to stick to Halal films. 770 00:43:56,792 --> 00:43:58,767 Before you know it, 771 00:43:58,768 --> 00:44:01,800 you're watching a film that doesn't have Halal in it. 772 00:44:01,801 --> 00:44:03,785 'I'm relieved that today 773 00:44:03,786 --> 00:44:06,770 'he is still the likeable guy I met four years ago.' 774 00:44:06,771 --> 00:44:08,802 I mean, don't you miss having a TV? 775 00:44:08,803 --> 00:44:09,827 It's not that I miss it, 776 00:44:09,828 --> 00:44:13,860 but there's a lot more time on your hands to find something to do. 777 00:44:13,861 --> 00:44:17,853 Living in the Western society is very limited, you know, 778 00:44:17,854 --> 00:44:21,810 for Halal activity to do. We are taught 779 00:44:21,811 --> 00:44:23,787 that all play is a waste of time, 780 00:44:23,788 --> 00:44:26,820 except for archery, swimming and horse riding - 781 00:44:26,821 --> 00:44:30,789 and play with the wife is one of the things that's not a waste of time. 782 00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:31,861 'We have never seen eye to eye 783 00:44:31,862 --> 00:44:34,822 'when it comes to Islamic fundamentalism, 784 00:44:34,823 --> 00:44:37,835 'but personally I have always got along with him.' 785 00:44:37,836 --> 00:44:41,792 I mean, you're friendly to me because, you know, um, 786 00:44:41,793 --> 00:44:44,849 we get along... as people. 787 00:44:44,850 --> 00:44:48,822 Um... getting along as people... 788 00:44:48,823 --> 00:44:51,803 Our way of life would not get along with each other. 789 00:44:51,804 --> 00:44:54,852 It just so happens that all the times we have been together, 790 00:44:54,853 --> 00:44:57,857 it is for the purpose of Islam, we're taking about Islam, 791 00:44:57,858 --> 00:44:59,814 what Islam entails. 792 00:44:59,815 --> 00:45:01,858 So as far as I can tell, you're questioning Islam, 793 00:45:01,859 --> 00:45:03,851 so I'm obliged to give you the answers. 794 00:45:03,852 --> 00:45:05,835 You might be able to say that we get along, 795 00:45:05,836 --> 00:45:09,797 but let's talk about the afterlife, and what comes next, 796 00:45:09,798 --> 00:45:11,789 in this sense we're not going to get along. 797 00:45:11,790 --> 00:45:12,854 Because I, as a Muslim, believe 798 00:45:12,855 --> 00:45:14,870 that for your salvation on the Day of Judgement, 799 00:45:14,871 --> 00:45:16,863 you should embrace Islam, and worship Allah 800 00:45:16,864 --> 00:45:18,695 and accept the final message of Muhammad, 801 00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:19,872 sallallahu alayhi wasallam 802 00:45:19,873 --> 00:45:22,881 and if you don't accept this as a way of life, 803 00:45:22,882 --> 00:45:25,889 then I, as a Muslim, believe which my Koran teaches me, 804 00:45:25,890 --> 00:45:28,818 then this person will be placed in the hellfire, 805 00:45:28,819 --> 00:45:31,875 after continuously hearing, er, the call to Islam. 806 00:45:31,876 --> 00:45:34,848 So we'll get along, I can be kind to you, 807 00:45:34,849 --> 00:45:37,837 we can even sit down and eat some chicken and chips together, 808 00:45:37,838 --> 00:45:40,802 this is not an issue. As long as it's Halal. 809 00:45:40,803 --> 00:45:44,816 But we will be separated on the Day of Judgement. 810 00:45:45,836 --> 00:45:47,812 I'm devastated. 811 00:45:47,813 --> 00:45:50,801 But it isn't the first time I have been shot down. 812 00:45:50,802 --> 00:45:52,886 So every time I've spoken to some of the brothers 813 00:45:52,887 --> 00:45:56,839 and I've felt there might be sort of friendship, 814 00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:02,837 or... sort of warm feelings towards each other, I'm just being mistaken. 815 00:46:02,838 --> 00:46:05,841 Obviously they're trying to incline you to Islam, innit. 816 00:46:05,842 --> 00:46:07,806 And maybe you'll become a Muslim. 817 00:46:07,807 --> 00:46:09,835 And then you can have a proper friendship. 818 00:46:09,836 --> 00:46:12,892 Obviously, it's not false they're trying to get close to you. 819 00:46:12,893 --> 00:46:16,901 But until you become Muslim, then there's going to be a barrier there, 820 00:46:16,902 --> 00:46:19,875 because Allah tells there to be. 821 00:46:25,900 --> 00:46:30,814 It's funny - this is the first time I've actually been to the prison. 822 00:46:31,858 --> 00:46:35,858 It's strange knowing just behind those walls there, somewhere, 823 00:46:35,859 --> 00:46:37,867 is Rich. 824 00:46:37,868 --> 00:46:39,892 I wonder what he's doing. 825 00:46:39,893 --> 00:46:43,873 It's Friday, so... probably 826 00:46:43,874 --> 00:46:46,878 Friday prayers today. 827 00:46:46,879 --> 00:46:52,864 Is he reading the Koran in his cell, is he playing ping-pong? 828 00:46:52,865 --> 00:46:54,836 You know. 829 00:46:54,837 --> 00:46:58,853 It's just strange thinking about life behind the walls. 830 00:46:58,854 --> 00:47:02,883 ♪ Well, I heard there was a secret chord 831 00:47:02,884 --> 00:47:06,836 ♪ That David played and it pleased the Lord 832 00:47:06,837 --> 00:47:09,881 ♪ But you don't really care for music... ♪ 833 00:47:09,882 --> 00:47:11,865 And he's refused to see me. 834 00:47:11,866 --> 00:47:13,858 I don't know why he's refused to see me. 835 00:47:13,859 --> 00:47:15,878 Maybe it's because... 836 00:47:15,879 --> 00:47:21,888 he knows I'm making a film, and... he doesn't trust me. 837 00:47:21,889 --> 00:47:24,878 Because I'm a disbeliever. 838 00:47:25,914 --> 00:47:28,898 And he doesn't trust disbelievers. 839 00:47:28,899 --> 00:47:32,900 Maybe everything in the two years after the film went out 840 00:47:32,901 --> 00:47:34,900 and leading to his arrest, 841 00:47:34,901 --> 00:47:37,925 where we were getting along just fine, 842 00:47:37,926 --> 00:47:42,891 and being friends was... just a façade. 843 00:47:44,904 --> 00:47:46,881 And that... 844 00:47:48,845 --> 00:47:52,921 he'd always intended to leave the country, 845 00:47:52,922 --> 00:47:55,874 to try and get training, 846 00:47:55,875 --> 00:47:57,840 to fight jihad. 847 00:47:58,852 --> 00:47:59,925 To die a martyr. 848 00:48:01,845 --> 00:48:03,861 I hate what's happened to Rich. 849 00:48:03,862 --> 00:48:06,899 What he's done to himself, and his family. 850 00:48:07,923 --> 00:48:12,879 But I still worry about the rhetoric from Anjem, and preachers like him. 851 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:18,849 Does he know that when he takes these guys under his wing, 852 00:48:18,850 --> 00:48:21,886 does he actually know that he's playing with their lives? 853 00:48:21,887 --> 00:48:24,912 He's playing with their families' lives? 854 00:48:26,853 --> 00:48:30,862 Dunno. And does he have a conscience at all? 855 00:48:32,870 --> 00:48:35,915 I feel like I have been here before. 856 00:48:39,873 --> 00:48:40,936 Just push! 857 00:48:40,937 --> 00:48:45,877 'Yes, it's that travel hotel in Chingford. 858 00:48:45,878 --> 00:48:48,871 I've got a couple of heavies with me. 859 00:48:49,928 --> 00:48:52,912 Where are the lattes? 860 00:48:53,917 --> 00:48:55,920 That machine's not very good. is it? 861 00:48:55,921 --> 00:48:58,882 Shall we get them to make some? You know the score. 862 00:48:59,895 --> 00:49:01,882 'I want to challenge Anjem again 863 00:49:01,883 --> 00:49:03,939 'on accepting responsibility for the part he played 864 00:49:03,940 --> 00:49:06,908 'in radicalising Rich, and others like him.' 865 00:49:06,909 --> 00:49:09,877 Brother Salahuddin embraced Islam at my hand. 866 00:49:09,878 --> 00:49:12,909 And he's a fantastic individual, and very good friend of mine. 867 00:49:12,910 --> 00:49:15,922 I believe that even if he was going abroad, he was going abroad 868 00:49:15,923 --> 00:49:18,879 to develop his own character and his personality. 869 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:20,904 From an Islamic perspective, for the Muslims to go 870 00:49:20,905 --> 00:49:23,889 anywhere in the world and stand with their brothers and sisters 871 00:49:23,890 --> 00:49:25,921 and defend their life and their property 872 00:49:25,922 --> 00:49:27,922 is extremely noble and commendable, 873 00:49:27,923 --> 00:49:30,907 in any Muslim's book, wherever you may be in the world. 874 00:49:30,908 --> 00:49:33,932 OK. And you would encourage that? 875 00:49:33,933 --> 00:49:36,925 I encourage people to fulfil their Islamic responsibility. 876 00:49:36,926 --> 00:49:39,914 If I thought it was better for me to go abroad, I'd be abroad. 877 00:49:39,915 --> 00:49:42,870 But I feel I can fulfil my responsibility... 878 00:49:42,871 --> 00:49:45,963 But do you encourage others, who look up to you, and follow you... 879 00:49:45,964 --> 00:49:47,912 to, to do that? Well, the thing is, 880 00:49:47,913 --> 00:49:49,969 I don't think many people look up to me and follow me... 881 00:49:49,970 --> 00:49:53,910 I think they do! No, they follow the Koran and they follow the tradition 882 00:49:53,911 --> 00:49:56,939 and the message of Muhammad, sallallahu alayhi wasallam. 883 00:49:56,940 --> 00:49:58,955 It's not individual, if you like, 884 00:49:58,956 --> 00:50:02,884 eulogising that's taking place here. No, but I mean it's... 885 00:50:02,885 --> 00:50:04,933 It's people following Islam. I'll come to your point, 886 00:50:04,934 --> 00:50:07,926 your point is, am I recruiting people and sending them abroad? 887 00:50:07,927 --> 00:50:08,966 The point is no. 888 00:50:08,967 --> 00:50:12,903 'A straight answer - I wasn't expecting that! 889 00:50:12,904 --> 00:50:13,948 'I'll continue.' 890 00:50:13,949 --> 00:50:17,925 Can you admit that you have that influence on people? 891 00:50:17,926 --> 00:50:19,918 Well, look, ah, I don't think that 892 00:50:19,919 --> 00:50:23,883 I'm influencing people to go abroad, quite frankly and honestly. 893 00:50:23,884 --> 00:50:25,971 There's nobody that's been abroad who's... You're not stupid. 894 00:50:25,972 --> 00:50:27,888 Written a letter to me, 895 00:50:27,889 --> 00:50:29,932 "Thank you very much for facilitating my trip abroad." 896 00:50:29,933 --> 00:50:31,981 You know, if you want to believe 897 00:50:31,982 --> 00:50:36,891 communist, you know, outlets, like Hope not Hate, 898 00:50:36,892 --> 00:50:38,971 the fact that I'm behind 200 or 300 people going abroad, ah, 899 00:50:38,972 --> 00:50:41,912 you know, I am a conveyor belt to terrorism 900 00:50:41,913 --> 00:50:43,925 and, you know, I'm the biggest factor 901 00:50:43,926 --> 00:50:46,890 since, I don't know, Osama Bin Laden on recruiting people 902 00:50:46,891 --> 00:50:48,906 to go to the battlefield, then you can do that. 903 00:50:48,907 --> 00:50:51,899 But you know, I think there's a hospital in South London for 904 00:50:51,900 --> 00:50:54,964 mental people, I'm sure they have places for people like yourself. 905 00:50:54,965 --> 00:50:57,929 'I live in south London! 906 00:50:57,930 --> 00:51:00,962 'Still not quite there yet... I'll try again.' 907 00:51:00,963 --> 00:51:04,967 What I kind of almost want you to do is just accept that you have 908 00:51:04,968 --> 00:51:08,992 some kind of responsibility for being so influential 909 00:51:08,993 --> 00:51:14,918 in Rich's journey, his story, and others like him. 910 00:51:14,919 --> 00:51:17,995 It's just, take a little bit of responsibility there 911 00:51:17,996 --> 00:51:20,984 because it's... Look, let me put it like this. 912 00:51:20,985 --> 00:51:23,989 I do believe that I was influential in, ah, 913 00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:28,954 Brother Saluhuddin's development, in his Islamic understanding. 914 00:51:28,955 --> 00:51:33,920 And I believe he became a very good propagator of Islam. 915 00:51:33,921 --> 00:51:35,992 He used to come to all our road shows, our stalls, etc 916 00:51:35,993 --> 00:51:37,965 and I am extremely proud of him. 917 00:51:37,966 --> 00:51:40,922 I think that, you know, he passed his message from your film, 918 00:51:40,923 --> 00:51:43,911 My Brother The Islamist, to millions of people around the world. 919 00:51:43,912 --> 00:51:45,987 But I at no time asked him to go abroad, you know. 920 00:51:45,988 --> 00:51:51,913 I didn't ask him to attend any kind of training camp in this country, 921 00:51:51,914 --> 00:51:54,934 and by all accounts he lost contact with me over the last year, 922 00:51:54,935 --> 00:51:56,955 and I heard about his arrest like everybody else. 923 00:51:56,956 --> 00:51:58,955 I didn't know he was going abroad, you know, 924 00:51:58,956 --> 00:52:02,000 I didn't know where he was going, he was doing it on his own account. 925 00:52:02,001 --> 00:52:04,009 I knew he wanted to go, I think, to Egypt, 926 00:52:04,010 --> 00:52:05,985 he wanted to study Arabic language, 927 00:52:05,986 --> 00:52:09,934 but Afghanistan or Pakistan training for jihad operations, 928 00:52:09,935 --> 00:52:12,003 this is all new to me. So, you know, this is where I stand 929 00:52:12,004 --> 00:52:14,976 because I believe in a covenant of security in this country 930 00:52:14,977 --> 00:52:17,921 and I believe that we can fulfil our responsibility here 931 00:52:17,922 --> 00:52:20,013 so this is where I stand - I'm not saying I didn't have an influence, 932 00:52:20,014 --> 00:52:21,990 but if you want to say that I'm the one 933 00:52:21,991 --> 00:52:24,983 who encouraged him to go abroad or to carry out operations, 934 00:52:24,984 --> 00:52:26,965 this is not the case. 935 00:52:28,961 --> 00:52:32,949 How about that arm wrestle? Are you ready for the arm wrestle? 936 00:52:32,950 --> 00:52:34,018 You know what, 937 00:52:34,019 --> 00:52:39,927 when you arm wrestle you end up hurting your arm for a few days. 938 00:52:39,928 --> 00:52:43,994 And I need my left and my right arms. 939 00:52:48,939 --> 00:52:51,987 CHANTING: Sharia for Burma! Sharia for Burma! 940 00:52:51,988 --> 00:52:55,968 ♪ All around me are familiar faces 941 00:52:55,969 --> 00:53:01,970 ♪ Worn out places Worn out faces... ♪ 942 00:53:01,971 --> 00:53:04,947 I don't think Anjem and I are ever likely to agree 943 00:53:04,948 --> 00:53:06,992 about what happened to Rich. 944 00:53:06,993 --> 00:53:10,965 "Fight them with your wealth, with your body, with your tongue!" 945 00:53:10,966 --> 00:53:14,962 His rhetoric is intoxicating and I think his views are dangerous 946 00:53:14,963 --> 00:53:16,938 and often irresponsible. 947 00:53:16,939 --> 00:53:20,972 Jihad! Jihad! Jihad! Jihad! 948 00:53:20,973 --> 00:53:24,025 But he's smart. He knows where the line is. 949 00:53:24,026 --> 00:53:27,998 The thing is, some of those who used to follow him 950 00:53:27,999 --> 00:53:30,959 aren't always afraid to cross it. 951 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,996 ♪ ...the dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had... ♪ 952 00:53:33,997 --> 00:53:38,017 I believe people like Anjem plant seeds that grow into extremism. 953 00:53:38,018 --> 00:53:41,950 The seeds thrive on anger and frustration. 954 00:53:41,951 --> 00:53:45,996 The problem is, there's a lot to be angry about. 955 00:53:47,949 --> 00:53:50,025 ♪ ...mad world 956 00:53:52,954 --> 00:53:54,974 ♪ Mad world... ♪ 957 00:53:54,975 --> 00:53:57,030 Extremism provides a potent identity 958 00:53:57,031 --> 00:54:01,956 and sense of belonging for those who maybe were once lost. 959 00:54:01,957 --> 00:54:04,045 And for some, it gives a powerful sense of purpose - 960 00:54:04,046 --> 00:54:08,951 something to fight for, and against. 961 00:54:14,041 --> 00:54:18,021 The unsettling truth is there is no simple answer 962 00:54:18,022 --> 00:54:20,049 to what happened to my step-brother, 963 00:54:20,050 --> 00:54:23,039 and continues to happen to others every day. 964 00:54:26,004 --> 00:54:29,044 I cannot reach Rich through the prison walls. 965 00:54:29,045 --> 00:54:33,966 I wish I could look him in the eye and ask him what he was thinking. 966 00:54:33,967 --> 00:54:35,994 I find myself returning again and again 967 00:54:35,995 --> 00:54:38,039 to the last of our filmed interviews, 968 00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,048 six months before he left to find training in Pakistan. 969 00:54:42,049 --> 00:54:45,017 In Sharia, if you kill a non-Muslim unjustly, 970 00:54:45,018 --> 00:54:46,981 there's a hadith that says 971 00:54:46,982 --> 00:54:49,971 you'll never smell the fragrance of Paradise. 972 00:54:51,044 --> 00:54:53,003 What are your hopes for the future? 973 00:54:53,004 --> 00:54:54,968 My hopes for the future? 974 00:54:54,969 --> 00:54:57,997 Hopefully, similar to when I first came into Islam, 975 00:54:57,998 --> 00:55:02,026 to try to continue to seek the pleasure of Allah, Insha'Allah, 976 00:55:02,027 --> 00:55:06,019 to struggle for the Caliphate until the day that I die, Insha'Allah, 977 00:55:06,020 --> 00:55:09,968 and die on what we call Tahweed, the worshipping only of Allah 978 00:55:09,969 --> 00:55:12,006 and the following and obeying only of Allah. 979 00:55:13,058 --> 00:55:18,039 Is Rich a terrorist? I think he would say Jihadist. 980 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:22,020 In hindsight, maybe a prison sentence 981 00:55:22,021 --> 00:55:25,054 shouldn't have come as such a surprise. 982 00:55:33,977 --> 00:55:38,021 Somebody told me that you've been inside, quite recently? 983 00:55:38,022 --> 00:55:39,066 Yeah. 984 00:55:43,063 --> 00:55:45,047 What did you do? 985 00:55:45,048 --> 00:55:49,009 It was a religiously aggravated common assault. 986 00:55:53,070 --> 00:55:57,014 They're the sort that Anjem's preying on. 987 00:55:57,015 --> 00:55:59,999 Very easy to manipulate, very easy to manipulate. 988 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,029 You look at most of them, I don't know why, a lot of them are ginger. 989 00:56:04,042 --> 00:56:06,049 They are! It's the truth. 990 00:56:06,050 --> 00:56:08,018 Because they haven't been accepted. 991 00:56:08,019 --> 00:56:11,000 But start showing 'em some love, they're in. 992 00:56:17,009 --> 00:56:21,055 My son needs me. He deserves a second chance. 993 00:56:23,019 --> 00:56:25,036 We should give him that chance. 994 00:56:27,060 --> 00:56:30,560 Sub source used: Anonymous Adaptation: miclar1