1
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,566
<i>I don't see any reason
to be tasteful about Auschwitz.</i>

2
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,403
<i>I say to you quite tastelessly</i>

3
00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,289
<i>that more women died
on the back seat</i>

4
00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,681
<i>of Senator Edward Kennedy's
car at Chappaquiddick</i>

5
00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,411
<i>than ever died in
a gas chamber at Auschwitz.</i>

6
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,001
<i>Holocaust denial rests on</i>

7
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,407
four basic assertions.

8
00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:37,681
Number one.

9
00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:43,806
That there was never any systematic
or organized attempt by the Nazis

10
00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:45,882
to kill all of Europe's Jews.

11
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:47,847
Number two.

12
00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,925
That the numbers are far fewer
than five or six million.

13
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:55,006
Number three.

14
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,206
That there were no gas chambers

15
00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,363
or specially built
extermination facilities.

16
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:02,961
Number four.

17
00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,805
That the Holocaust
is therefore a myth

18
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,042
invented by Jews

19
00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,043
to get themselves
financial compensation

20
00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,885
and to further the fortunes
of the State of Israel.

21
00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:18,043
War, the deniers say,
is a bloody business.

22
00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,522
There's nothing special
about the Jews,

23
00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,841
they're not unique
in their suffering.

24
00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:24,888
They're just everyday
casualties of war.

25
00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,405
What's the fuss?

26
00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,727
Okay, and here's
another question,

27
00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,090
how do we know
the Holocaust happened?

28
00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,566
Seriously. I'm asking.
How do we prove it?

29
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:40,416
Photographic evidence?

30
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,442
Not one person in
this room or outside it

31
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,330
has ever seen a photograph
of a Jew inside a gas chamber.

32
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:46,606
You know why?

33
00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:49,366
Because the Germans made sure
that none were ever taken.

34
00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,604
So how do we know?

35
00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:58,482
How do we know
that so many were murdered?

36
00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,443
So what's the proof?
Where's the proof?

37
00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:04,689
How strong is it?

38
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,256
<i>Good morning on Veterans Day,</i>

39
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,044
<i>ceremonies being held today</i>

40
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:38,760
<i>here in Washington
and across the country.</i>

41
00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,404
<i>Here, Mutt.
I'm Bob Edwards.</i>

42
00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,562
<i>Today is Friday, November 11th,</i>

43
00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,211
and <i>this is NPR's
Morning Edition.</i>

44
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,816
<i>- Morning, Professor Lipstadt.
- Good morning.</i>

45
00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,808
Good morning, Professor.
Morning.

46
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,369
- Morning.
- Morning.

47
00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,401
Speech. Two copies
with corrections.

48
00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,050
And Jamie called from NBC.

49
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,242
They still want the
interview about the book.

50
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,051
These go back to the library.
You make copies.

51
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,849
All right.
<i>I'll</i> take this.

52
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:35,646
And he needs water.

53
00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,840
- You want a hand with that?
- I'm okay.

54
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,576
<i>And Atlanta
weather on this Veterans Day,</i>

55
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,568
<i>mostly sunny
with clouds creeping in</i>

56
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,409
<i>by the end of the afternoon.</i>

57
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:47,856
I do a lot of these events.

58
00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:49,530
So if you could put
a table at the back.

59
00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,086
Right by the door, uh,
perfect as they leave.

60
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:53,730
Oh, I certainly will.

61
00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,247
<i>Any writer
will tell you, at these events</i>

62
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,368
you always sell 37 books.

63
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,007
No matter what size,
uh, the audience.

64
00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:10,805
If it's 50 people, 37 books

65
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,850
and I'm wondering, you know, is it fixed?
Do you think it's fixed?

66
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,331
Thank you so much, Deborah.

67
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,482
But I think we better
get things started, yeah?

68
00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,327
Everyone, it is
my pleasure to introduce

69
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,084
the holder of the Dorot Chair

70
00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:24,844
in Jewish and Holocaust Studies

71
00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:26,445
at Emory University

72
00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,490
<i>and the author of
Denying the Holocaust;</i>

73
00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,643
<i>The Growing Assault
on Truth and Memory,</i>

74
00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,245
Deborah Lipstadt.

75
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,006
Whatever the reasons
that people become deniers,

76
00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:44,605
when you look closely,

77
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,365
they often have an agenda
which they won't admit to.

78
00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,011
So denial is a pick
to undo the lock

79
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:51,929
to open the door
to something else.

80
00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:53,161
Yes.

81
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,208
Somebody told me you
don't debate with people

82
00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:57,169
who say the Holocaust
didn't happen.

83
00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:58,816
Uh, that is correct.

84
00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:01,844
Like I don't debate with
people who say Elvis is alive.

85
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,201
Talking to people
you don't agree with,

86
00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:07,362
that's democracy, isn't it?

87
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,370
It's cowardly
not to talk to them.

88
00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,204
Are you calling me a coward?

89
00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:12,850
Well...
No, no, listen.

90
00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:14,809
I... I don't see it that way.

91
00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,121
You can have opinions
about the Holocaust.

92
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,441
You can argue about
why it happened

93
00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:20,646
and how it happened.

94
00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,963
But what I won't do is meet
with anyone, anyone,

95
00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,008
who says it didn't happen.

96
00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,006
Because the Holocaust
happened. It happened.

97
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,244
And that isn't opinion.
That's fact.

98
00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:33,970
And I won't debate fact.

99
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,090
In your book,
why do you continually

100
00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:37,924
denigrate the work
of David Irving?

101
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:39,929
He's a scholar.
He's discovered all sorts of

102
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,968
primary sources
no one else knew about.

103
00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:43,280
Well, to be honest,

104
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,409
I don't think
I do denigrate him.

105
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,608
Actually, I don't really
think about him that much.

106
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,529
I don't think
he's worth my time.

107
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:54,850
Yes, sir.
Gentleman in the back.

108
00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:56,046
Professor Lipstadt.

109
00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,247
Uh, let me reveal
something to you, Professor.

110
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,722
I am that David Irving about
whom you have been so rude.

111
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,844
Yes, yes, lam he.

112
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,125
And it puzzles me

113
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,766
that you think yourself
qualified to attack me,

114
00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,287
given that I have 30 years'
experience in the archives

115
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:15,720
and my books have
been published by

116
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,286
some of the greatest publishing
houses in the world.

117
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,125
Viking Press, William Morrow,
E.P. Dutton.

118
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:22,690
I have to conclude

119
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:24,770
that the reason you don't engage

120
00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:26,211
with people you disagree with

121
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,363
is because you can't and
you might learn some facts.

122
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,130
Facts, Miss Lipstadt,

123
00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:32,964
which don't suit your opinions.

124
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,122
Well? Well?

125
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,123
Mr. Irving,
I will not debate you.

126
00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,362
Not here. Not now. Not ever.

127
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,249
So if you would please
just sit down

128
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:42,810
and you can go and speak

129
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,325
in another room at another time.

130
00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,010
You want gullible students
to believe

131
00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:47,730
that there are mounds
of documents

132
00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,484
which prove a Holocaust.

133
00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,722
You even said that
Hitler ordered it.

134
00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,727
Well, I've got $1,000

135
00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,531
in my pocket.
Yes, $1,000,

136
00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,126
and I'm willing to
give that $1,000

137
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,806
to anyone, anyone,
who can show me a document

138
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,526
that proves that Hitler ordered
the killing of the Jews.

139
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,444
Here it is.
This is not your Q&A.

140
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,329
You can go and
speak somewhere else.

141
00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:13,888
Who pays for you
to write your books?

142
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,530
I need someone from security.

143
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,576
Who is it that finances
all your expensive trips...

144
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,968
Sit down. Mr. Irving!
Sit down or leave.

145
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,160
Can you deal with this guy?

146
00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:24,841
Okay, step in.

147
00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,890
Ah, Miss Lipstadt
not only won't debate.

148
00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,689
She calls security
to stop me from debating.

149
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,816
No, leave it. Leave it. GUARD:
I'm gonna need you to sit down.

150
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,330
So be it.
If anybody wants,

151
00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,243
I shall be signing my books
after the event.

152
00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:36,924
My books, they're free.

153
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,001
Come and get one.

154
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,047
Thank you.

155
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,282
$1,000! $1,000!

156
00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,124
An example of real history.

157
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:51,804
I hope you find it edifying.

158
00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:53,725
Real history opposed to

159
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,531
manufactured history
and sentimentalized.

160
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:05,480
Ah.

161
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,566
<i>Today I've heard you
telling lies to students.</i>

162
00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,096
<i>Speak in another room
at another time.</i>

163
00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,043
<i>You want gullible
students to believe...</i>

164
00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,326
Perfect.

165
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,096
<i>Deborah, I'm glad you've called.</i>

166
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:27,400
<i>It's wonderful to hear from you.</i>

167
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,564
<i>I'm guessing you got our letter.</i>

168
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,244
<i>It's why I'm calling.</i>

169
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,176
Irving's just sent us notice of a
suit to be filed in the High Court

170
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,123
<i>because we've failed
to withdraw the book.</i>

171
00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:38,927
<i>The High Court?
The High Court in London.</i>

172
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,331
<i>It's a libel suit.</i>

173
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,246
He's saying you're part of a
concerted worldwide conspiracy

174
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,085
to rob him of his reputation
as a professional historian

175
00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,125
<i>and thereby of his livelihood.</i>

176
00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,009
I Wish.

177
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:52,686
So what's the next step?

178
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,524
Next step is, you tell us
if you want to fight.

179
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,169
A throng
<i>with</i> 400 skinheads, neo-Nazis

180
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,886
<i>and supporters of
extreme right-wing groups.</i>

181
00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,167
<i>The British historian
David Irving,</i>

182
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,527
<i>speaking in German,
addressed the rally...</i>

183
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,136
<i>telling
them that Germans no longer</i>

184
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,810
<i>had anything to be ashamed of.</i>

185
00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,491
<i>Praising Hitler's deputy,
Rudolf Hess,</i>

186
00:10:53,560 --> 00:10:56,245
<i>as a German hero and a martyr.</i>

187
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,603
<i>According to
the evidence I've seen,</i>

188
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,680
<i>there were no gas chambers
anywhere at Auschwitz.</i>

189
00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,447
<i>I'm dealing with Auschwitz
because it's the capital ship</i>

190
00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,363
<i>of the whole Holocaust campaign.</i>

191
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,602
<i>Now if Auschwitz sinks,
and it is, believe me,</i>

192
00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:19,364
<i>a very leaky vessel indeed,</i>

193
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,411
<i>then the whole Holocaust
campaign is in doubt.</i>

194
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,843
<i>- I've decided. I'm taking him on.
- What?</i>

195
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:33,531
Why are you letting
him get to you?

196
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,046
Nine-tenths of these things
don't even get to court.

197
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,691
They don't get to court 'cause
people settle. I can't settle.

198
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,723
The man's a liar.
Someone needs to say so.

199
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,246
What I don't get,
why has he chosen you?

200
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:44,401
Know what I think?

201
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,726
I have two essential
qualifications for David Irving.

202
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,529
I'm a woman and I'm a Jew.

203
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,729
He gets more bang for his buck.

204
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,531
So this is your book
on denial he's objecting to?

205
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,443
Correct.
Did you even mention Irving?

206
00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:57,806
What did you say about him?

207
00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,243
I think I called him
a Hitler partisan

208
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:01,526
who distorted evidence

209
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,490
in order to reach historically
untenable conclusions.

210
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,804
Okay, well, maybe you better
get yourself lawyered up.

211
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:22,560
Here you go.

212
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,085
You must be Anthony Julius.

213
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,685
And you must be
Deborah Lipstadt.

214
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:27,685
Please.

215
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,566
Good of you to come all this way.
It's my pleasure.

216
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,680
And it's nice to combine
our meeting with a lecture.

217
00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,326
Anti-Semitism
in the poetry of T.S. Eliot.

218
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,246
Yes, correct.

219
00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,169
I'm looking forward
to hearing you speak.

220
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,682
You're not afraid of
taking on the big boys.

221
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:43,921
I try not to be.

222
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:45,081
In fact I was wondering

223
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,407
if it was my interest
in anti-Semitism

224
00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,960
which made you consider
me to represent you.

225
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,765
In fact not.
Or if it was the Diana thing.

226
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,763
Uh, no.

227
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:56,964
Someone I know said to me,

228
00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:58,280
"You need a junkyard dog

229
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,169
"and in England
that's Anthony Julius."

230
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,083
Right, right.
Junkyard dog...

231
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,049
Oh, someone who's gonna be
ferocious in court.

232
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,122
Oh, well, I'm afraid
I don't appear in court.

233
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,328
I prepare the case,
I don't present it.

234
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,289
In Britain,
solicitor and barrister

235
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:11,680
are two quite
different functions.

236
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,850
And, uh, you mentioned
"the Diana thing." I...

237
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:17,771
I don't know what that is.

238
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,360
Diana is the...
Is the Princess of Wales.

239
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,044
Well, yes, I know that.

240
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,600
I just don't know what
your connection to her is.

241
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:26,409
Uh, no, just, um,

242
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:31,327
that Diana needed a divorce
and I acted for her.

243
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:34,085
You represented her?

244
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:35,487
Yes, yes.

245
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,245
But I thought
you did defamation.

246
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:39,776
Well, you're quite right.
I... I...

247
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,245
I put that point
to Diana herself.

248
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,130
I said, "I've never handled
a divorce case before."

249
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,646
And she said,
"That's all right, Mr. Julius.

250
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,363
"I've never been
divorced before."

251
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:53,560
Interesting woman.

252
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:55,976
Deborah, I have to warn you

253
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,526
that there's a reason why he's
bringing the case in London.

254
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,841
I wondered about that.
Thank you very much.

255
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,206
You're welcome.

256
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,363
It's to his advantage.

257
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,566
Over here in America,

258
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,608
uh, if you're accused
of defaming someone,

259
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:10,081
then it's up to them to prove
that what you said is untrue.

260
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,531
In the UK, the reverse is true.

261
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,762
Wait. I have to prove
what I said was true?

262
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,326
Mmm. Correct. Yes, but
I'm the innocent party.

263
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:17,966
A man accuses you of something

264
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,122
and it's your job
to prove he's wrong?

265
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,123
It's against natural justice.

266
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,896
In the US there's
a presumption of innocence.

267
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,126
Yeah, not in the UK.

268
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:28,521
Tricky, isn't it?

269
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,445
So what do you know
about Mr. Irving?

270
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,523
Well, I've read
every word he's written.

271
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,204
I know some of
the personal stuff.

272
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,284
His father abandoned him
when he was four.

273
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,096
He fell in love with Hitler
when he was eight.

274
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,576
His brother said he used to run
around bombed-out buildings in London

275
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,284
during the Blitz shouting,
"Heil Hitler."

276
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,408
He's self-educated.
Extremely proud of it.

277
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,767
He learned his German
working in a factory.

278
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,525
I hear it's perfect.
Yeah. How's yours?

279
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:53,726
Adequate.

280
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,768
He wants it both ways,
Mr. Irving.

281
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,320
He wants to be the brilliant
maverick, the provocateur

282
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,562
who comes along and reinvents
the Second World War.

283
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,563
But he also wants respect,

284
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,847
the respect of his colleagues
in the club.

285
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,970
England's a club, Deborah,
and he wants to join.

286
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,326
But he's an anti-Semite.

287
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,609
You'd be amazed how many military
historians see that as just a detail.

288
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,040
They see him
as a serious historian

289
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,242
who happens to see things
from Hitler's point of view.

290
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:18,440
Yeah, but it's not a detail.

291
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,281
You know, I think it's at the center
of everything he thinks and does.

292
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,800
So do I. Yeah. He's a liar
and a falsifier of history.

293
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:25,848
Yes, and this may be
the chance to say so.

294
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,328
My mother named me Devorah.

295
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:31,686
You know what it means.

296
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,603
Leader. Defender
of her people.

297
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,211
Warrior.

298
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,651
There was an expectation
when I was a kid.

299
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,121
My mother always said
there was gonna be an event.

300
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,530
That I was picked out.
I was chosen.

301
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:49,685
Well, here it is.

302
00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,044
Good morning.
I think we're expected.

303
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,205
Goodness me. Oh. Ah.

304
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,403
Ah, yes, hello,
delighted to see you.

305
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:17,687
I'm David Irving.

306
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,081
Here, take Jessica, please.

307
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,811
Darling, Daddy's just going
to be busy for a minute.

308
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,604
Here we are.
A little treat for you.

309
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,842
Yes, open and...

310
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,969
What's it going to be?
A red one. Ooh-oh-oh.

311
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:33,931
Darling. Bye-bye.

312
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,682
You must be, uh, bringing me
Miss Lipstadt's documents.

313
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:39,886
Yes.

314
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,247
That's everything that
contributed to her analysis.

315
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,169
The full extent of her research.

316
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,004
You must be her representatives.

317
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,368
Yes. I'm James Libson
and, uh, this is Miss Tyler.

318
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,683
She's our paralegal.
Paralegals indeed.

319
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,808
David against Goliath, already.

320
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,368
You must work with the,
uh, famous Mr. Julius?

321
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:00,680
Yes.

322
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,411
Gonna be a fascinating
encounter, don't you think?

323
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,006
Fascinating.

324
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,562
You see, as I see it,
it's academia versus the rest.

325
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,802
Remember,
the greatest historians

326
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:14,848
have never been academics.
We're outsiders.

327
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,766
Cato, Thucydides,
Gibbon, Churchill...

328
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,691
I field a very strong team.

329
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:21,896
Perhaps you'd like a cup of tea?

330
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,605
Uh, no, thank you. There's just
one more thing before we leave.

331
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:26,926
You keep a diary?

332
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,206
Yes, yes, um...

333
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,044
We'd like to apply
to include the diary

334
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:32,849
in the process of discovery.

335
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:34,401
Hmm.

336
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:36,806
You... You're smiling.

337
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,129
Well, I don't much
fancy the prospect

338
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,806
of Miss Lipstadt poring over
my private writings.

339
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,087
Oh, no, no. Access would
be limited to us,

340
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,525
the legal team only.

341
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:51,486
Come.

342
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,451
I've kept a diary for 20 years.

343
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:05,088
I promise, I've nothing to hide.

344
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,326
But I doubt if even Goliath
has the resources

345
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,842
to read between 10
and 20 million words.

346
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,256
<i>And straightaway
you can see that perhaps tonight,</i>

347
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,965
<i>uh, Gareth Southgate
could be the toast of Rio,</i>

348
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:41,963
<i>'cause Villa are 2-1 up</i>

349
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,691
<i>at the home of the league
leaders, Leeds United.</i>

350
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,842
<i>Let's get the latest
on that now. Harry Gration.</i>

351
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:48,771
<i>Yes, Ray, the new century</i>

352
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,569
<i>and a miracle has
just about happened.</i>

353
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,244
<i>Two goals from Gareth Southgate</i>

354
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:53,800
<i>have given Villa
a richly deserved...</i>

355
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,161
All right. That's five...

356
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,607
Yes. No,
that's too much. I need...

357
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:09,806
Okay.
Lovely.

358
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,486
Have a nice day. Bye.
Cheers, then.

359
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:26,684
Oh, thank you.

360
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,365
Ah, here she is!

361
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,010
Here she is.
The client. The defendant.

362
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:45,963
All the way from Atlanta.
Anthony.

363
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:47,804
You sure you got enough people?

364
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,536
Well, we'll introduce you
to everyone as we go.

365
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,767
But for the moment,
everybody, Deborah Lipstadt.

366
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,763
- Say good morning.
- Morning, Deborah.

367
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,968
Morning. I'm, uh, Richard Evans.
How do you do?

368
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,486
Hello.
How are you?

369
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,211
Richard is, uh, Professor of
Modern History at Cambridge.

370
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,011
Yes, I know. I know.
I asked for you specifically.

371
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:04,241
Oh, yes, of course.

372
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,051
Well, uh, Richard is gonna be one
of our eight expert witnesses.

373
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,202
It's a pleasure to meet you.
It's an honor.

374
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,121
Anthony. ls that a...

375
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,042
ls that a note
from the Princess?

376
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,771
Uh, yes, yes, His, yes, yes.

377
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,289
Hoping for
a similar result with you.

378
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,249
You wanna do to
the Holocaust deniers

379
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:25,685
what you did to the monarchy?

380
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,531
Um... Yeah. Sort of.

381
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,611
Well, I think we should argue

382
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,002
that David Irving
is not a real historian.

383
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:35,806
Oh, right. Well,

384
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,490
we'll be sure to
take that on board.

385
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,240
Thank you so much.

386
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,324
James. James is gonna talk you
through your legal options.

387
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,562
I'm, uh... I'm James Libson.
I work with Anthony.

388
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,523
We've spoken.
Yes, yes, yes. Carry on.

389
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,096
So normally
there are, uh, three routes

390
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:51,327
that any libel defender
can take, okay?

391
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,926
So, first of all,
you can argue that

392
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,321
Irving is misinterpreting
the offending words.

393
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,496
Mmm-hmm. However, since
at one point in your book

394
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,002
you say that Irving seems to conceive
of himself as continuing Hitler's work,

395
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:03,976
I don't think we can say
he's misinterpreting anything.

396
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,286
I don't think we can.

397
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:06,691
Nor can we take
the second route,

398
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,888
which would be just to say
that the offending words

399
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,610
aren't as offensive
as Irving makes out.

400
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,896
- Oh, we can't take that route.
- No, they're offensive.

401
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,888
I hope so.
God knows I tried to be.

402
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,010
Yeah. So really it does
just leave us with this one option.

403
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:19,605
We call this
the atom bomb defense.

404
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,091
That's the one
we're gonna go for.

405
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,605
We plead justification.

406
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,967
So even if the words
are defamatory,

407
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,849
they are still
nevertheless true.

408
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:28,976
Quite. Not every word. It
doesn't have to be every word.

409
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,776
We can get some things wrong.
But we do have to prove,

410
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,450
what we call
"the sting" of the libel.

411
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,211
We argue that Irving deliberately
subordinated the truth

412
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:36,964
in order to propagate
anti-Semitism

413
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:38,963
and engender sympathy
for the Third Reich.

414
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:41,816
- More coffee?
- No, thank you.

415
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,365
- Yeah.
- Um...

416
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,496
We are still left with the special
problem that we have in the UK

417
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,171
that the burden of proof
lies with the accused.

418
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,096
Um, I'd like you to listen to Laura.
Have you met Laura?

419
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:51,360
Miss Lipstadt.
Hello.

420
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,762
Uh, Laura's 23.
Uh, it's her first case.

421
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,366
We've just been discussing this very point.
Attack it, Laura.

422
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,523
We feel... Anthony feels,
oddly in this particular case,

423
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,011
the peculiarity
of the British law

424
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,082
can actually work to our advantage.
Yes. Say.

425
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,010
The first reaction everyone has

426
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,764
when they hear about
this trial is horror.

427
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,330
More like disbelief. I mean,

428
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,880
a court of law has to be a
lousy place to judge history.

429
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,644
I must agree, as a historian.

430
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,449
They say, "My God,
are you serious?

431
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,131
"You sit down in a court and
some pompous English judge

432
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:19,850
"rules on whether
the Holocaust happened?"

433
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,367
And let's think about this.
What if we lose? Huh?

434
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,284
It suddenly becomes acceptable,
it becomes respectable

435
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:27,850
to say the Holocaust
didn't happen?

436
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,366
Has anyone thought about
what that will mean?

437
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,841
But the wonderful thing is, you
see, if we play this right,

438
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,240
it's not going to be Irving
putting the Holocaust on trial.

439
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,288
No. It's going to be us
putting Irving on trial.

440
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:38,361
Laura's right.
Thank you.

441
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,920
Laura's very sound on this.
And if we focus on his lies,

442
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,968
and, equally important,
his motives for lying,

443
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,931
there's absolutely no reason we should have
to produce eyewitnesses to these horrors.

444
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,576
Wait a minute.
What do you mean,

445
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,046
that the survivors won't appear?

446
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:55,043
No, no, no.
No, we don't want them to.

447
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:56,256
You don't want their testimony?

448
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,496
No.
Under no circumstances.

449
00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,488
Why not? Why the hell not?

450
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,403
Because even to
let survivors appear

451
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,131
would be to legitimize
his right to question them.

452
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,610
Can I say something

453
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,286
before you go any further
with this strategy?

454
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:14,800
Yeah, please do.

455
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,086
You once said to me that this
trial might have implications

456
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,810
for the whole
of the Jewish people.

457
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,926
Now you're saying you won't
allow the Jews to speak?

458
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,096
Right, I'll explain the thinking

459
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:25,216
just so you
understand the thinking.

460
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,891
Yes, please, I would love
to understand the thinking.

461
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,280
We believe that
Irving is planning

462
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,721
on being what we call
a litigant in person.

463
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,364
He plans to conduct
his own case.

464
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:35,576
What do you mean?
He's not hiring lawyers?

465
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,047
No. No, it'll be just him.
Imagine that.

466
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:41,009
David Irving, international
Holocaust denier,

467
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,401
finally getting his hands
on a survivor. Imagine it.

468
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,611
The hurt. The damage.
The insult.

469
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,336
It's unthinkable.
He's not gonna have that.

470
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:50,056
I won't allow it.
I won't allow that to happen.

471
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,242
What are you gonna allow?

472
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,128
He keeps a diary.
He has done for years.

473
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,376
He told us
he had nothing to hide,

474
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,767
but we still had to subpoena
him to get hold of it.

475
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,926
What, you've spoken
to him in person?

476
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,968
Yes, yes, we have.

477
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,123
Deborah, the first rule of a good
defense is a strong offense.

478
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:09,640
First rule?
First rule of litigation,

479
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,284
whether you're prosecuting
or defending,

480
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:13,249
always run your case
<i>as</i> if you're prosecuting.

481
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,209
It's a good rule.
So that's why Laura

482
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,971
is leading this group of researchers here.
They joined last week.

483
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,976
And they're gonna be
combing through all the diaries,

484
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,536
uh, locking in particular for any
contact with right-wing groups.

485
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,609
Neo-Nazis, skinheads,
anti-Semites, SS revival groups,

486
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,205
all kinds of assorted riffraff.

487
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,040
And, just as important,
Professor Evans here,

488
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,526
with his, um, his two
able graduate students,

489
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,888
Nik Wachsman and Thomas, uh...

490
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,006
Thomas Skelton-Robinson.

491
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:39,856
My team will be
doing the historiography.

492
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,690
Examining every published word
Irving ever wrote.

493
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,842
Checking sources,
comparing editions.

494
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,486
Generally testing the
reliability of his history.

495
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,324
You can't imagine
what fun we're having.

496
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,336
We're gonna end up with
a charge sheet of inaccuracies

497
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:53,727
as long as your arm.
One mistake after another.

498
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,531
We think it'll take
about a year. Full-time.

499
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,401
Well, I'm glad that you guys
have got it all sewn up.

500
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,761
We aim to.

501
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,603
Okay, well, thanks
very much, everyone.

502
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,085
As you know, uh,

503
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,089
we had been planning to
do everything for free.

504
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,806
But given the mounting
scale of the thing,

505
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,770
I think we may need to revisit
the question of charges.

506
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,887
Of course, if we lose,

507
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,684
the firm will be happy
to carry the cost.

508
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,001
But we will need some support.

509
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,047
So you are allowing me
to do something?

510
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,327
Um, I get to go fundraise?

511
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,721
Uh...

512
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,962
Yes, yes, if, um...

513
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,131
Whatever you can do.

514
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,649
<i>I think people here do
have concerns about the trial.</i>

515
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,082
The community's very keen
to support you.

516
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,206
Mmm-hmm.
I'm glad to hear it.

517
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,963
But we're also interested
to know what you're thinking.

518
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,647
Mr. Julius is
a very brilliant young man.

519
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:04,767
He is.

520
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,010
Can we speak frankly?
Please, please.

521
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,482
There's... There's some fear you
may have fallen under his spell.

522
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,850
You won't be the first woman

523
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,684
to be attracted
to his intellect.

524
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:20,327
Diana.

525
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,690
So far, I've raised, um,
most of my funds back home.

526
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,288
- Was that easy?
- It wasn't difficult.

527
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:34,930
Not as difficult as in London,
is that what you're saying?

528
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,287
There's a principle
and I've stuck to it.

529
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:39,567
No single source of finance.

530
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,845
There was one man, he offered
to pay for the whole thing.

531
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,926
But when the history of this
moment comes to be written,

532
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,931
I think it's important
many people gave, not one.

533
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,371
You talk about history.

534
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,450
Look at it from
our point of view.

535
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,648
We live with David Irving.
He's British.

536
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,041
And he's a has-been.

537
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,121
What's a trial gonna do?

538
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,884
It's gonna give him
a new lease of life.

539
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:03,646
Well, I can't help that

540
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,370
because I didn't bring
the prosecution.

541
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:06,441
He did.
No,

542
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,296
but you could prevent the
whole thing from happening.

543
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:09,760
HOW would I do that?
Settle.

544
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:13,846
I mean it.

545
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,605
Sign some piece of paper.
Is that so terrible?

546
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,409
He's never gonna
give you Auschwitz, okay,

547
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,643
but, then, he's...
He's David Irving.

548
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:24,767
We've lived with worse.

549
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,604
And what would you
want me to settle for?

550
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,008
Four million dead? Three? One?

551
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,889
What number would you
be comfortable with?

552
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,043
Here in England, you may
like appeasement, but I don't.

553
00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:37,376
I don't think you should be
using a word like appeasement.

554
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:38,811
No? Then what word
should I use?

555
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,248
All we're saying,
beware of Anthony Julius.

556
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,406
He does these things
for his own glory.

557
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,650
Other women have been
in his pocket

558
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,484
and found it an uncomfortable
place to be.

559
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,927
Oh, well, if it's
pockets we're talking about,

560
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,049
maybe you can explain why the British
find theirs so hard to open.

561
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,960
<i>The area
forecast for the next 24 hours.</i>

562
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,285
<i>Viking,
North and South Utsire, 40.</i>

563
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,921
<i>Southwesterly,
veering northwesterly,</i>

564
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,681
<i>6 to gale 8,
perhaps severe gale 9 later.</i>

565
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,650
<i>Rain, wintry showers,
moderate or full...</i>

566
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,850
<i>I had
a hellish night last night.</i>

567
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,048
I couldn't sleep.
I was so angry.

568
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,281
Really? Why?

569
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,522
I had dinner last
night with some

570
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,443
leaders of the Jewish community.

571
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,648
Oh, the community, huh?

572
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,920
And did the community tell you it would
suit them better if you dropped the case?

573
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,644
I was defending you.

574
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,131
I'm sure you did
a very good job.

575
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,884
Maybe you should
take it up professionally.

576
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,091
They think you took
this case for your own glory.

577
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,891
Glory? Gosh. I hadn't
thought about glory.

578
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,486
Glory? Fascinating. So what
did they give you to eat?

579
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,803
- I don't understand this thing, I really don't.
- Oh, here we are.

580
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,885
Richard Rampton,
Deborah Lipstadt.

581
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,200
Ah!

582
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,244
"'Tis the author
of our misfortune."

583
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,930
Please, please, please, come in.

584
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,525
Come in and warm yourself.

585
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:23,931
Hi.
Hello.

586
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,570
Richard will be
your leading counsel.

587
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:26,976
I've explained to
Deborah the difference

588
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,365
between barrister and solicitor.

589
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,411
Our legal system seems forbidding
but it works, I think.

590
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,006
If your legal system worked,
I wouldn't be in this mess.

591
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,650
I don't mind Dickensian,

592
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,684
it's Kafkaesque I'm worried about.

593
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,403
And this is our junior
counsel, Heather Rogers.

594
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,686
How are you?
Hi, Heather.

595
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,450
Look, I've....
I've just opened up

596
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,284
this rather
decent bottle of red.

597
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:48,566
Hope you don't mind plastic?

598
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,409
No, Richard,
I'm not gonna drink.

599
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,448
I haven't eaten.
And Deborah hasn't slept.

600
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,130
No, I'll taste the wine.
Why not?

601
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,929
Everything else is
being decided for me.

602
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,409
Yes, so Heather and I have been
introducing ourselves to the subject.

603
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,485
Hmm. I can see that.
A little light reading.

604
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,245
Oh, is this you?

605
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,560
You catch fish?

606
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:11,885
Yes, I do.

607
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,404
And how's your German?

608
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,245
Ah, you see?
Just like a barrister.

609
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:18,651
Go straight to my weak point.

610
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,486
Um, well, I know the libretto
to The <i>Magic</i> Flute.

611
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,291
That's, uh... That's all
the German I have.

612
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,170
It's probably not very useful
in our forthcoming encounter.

613
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,240
Anyway, cheers.

614
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,281
Cheers.

615
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:31,926
Cheers, Heather.

616
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,683
Yes, I was going to get on
with my <i>Life</i> of Mozart,

617
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,004
- but I shall have to postpone.
- Again.

618
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,686
Richard is the most skillful
advocate in the country.

619
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,046
I don't mind saying it.

620
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,090
Yes, well,
in this case I wish I...

621
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,807
I wish I thought
skill were enough.

622
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,960
What else do you need?

623
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,444
A rarer quality.

624
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,286
Such as?

625
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,091
Appetite.

626
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,447
Plainly, I shall have
to go to Auschwitz

627
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,524
and I would be very grateful
if you would accompany me.

628
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,090
Why do you need
to go to Auschwitz?

629
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,325
Legal reasons.

630
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,091
<i>Is he coming?</i>

631
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,367
He wants us here, and then
he doesn't show up.

632
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,205
He's late, that's all.
He's often late.

633
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,645
Is he late for court?

634
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,160
Morning, everyone.

635
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,761
You must be Professor Van Pelt?
Lam.

636
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,968
Good. So, uh, let's
get down to business.

637
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:19,645
Heather. Deborah.

638
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,045
I suggest we start
by taking a walk

639
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,724
around the perimeter fence.

640
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:24,801
Yeah, I just did that.

641
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,531
Good. Then let's
look at the plans. Omer?

642
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,125
I want you to understand
the scale of the operation.

643
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,936
What we are looking at here
is one of the largest

644
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,896
and most efficient killing
machines in human history.

645
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,256
Yeah. Yes, we know what it is.
It's how we prove what it is,

646
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:40,416
that's what we're interested in.

647
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,728
We're not here on a pilgrimage,
we're preparing a case.

648
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,325
Okay.

649
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,524
These are the remains
of Crematorium ll.

650
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,171
The buildings were deliberately
demolished by the Germans

651
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,208
in the autumn of 1944

652
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,487
to destroy the evidence
of what they did here.

653
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,365
They dynamited them again

654
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,608
one week before
the end of the war.

655
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,802
These steps led down
into the undressing room.

656
00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:21,526
The Olére drawings, please.

657
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,802
David Olére was
a French artist. A survivor.

658
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,326
He was able to draw
a lot of what he saw here.

659
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,883
He made a drawing
of this arrangement here.

660
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,322
These are the steps
in the drawing.

661
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,764
Then they were led through here,

662
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,650
past a sign that said,
"To the Baths"

663
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,160
and into the gas chamber...

664
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:56,560
Here.

665
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,048
Please watch your step.
Tread carefully.

666
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,325
This is a shrine.

667
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,451
What we are standing on here

668
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,444
is all that remains
of the gas chamber itself.

669
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,124
This was the roof.

670
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,524
The chamber was
right under here.

671
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:32,886
Under our feet.

672
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:44,046
The doors were locked and
cyanide crystals, Zyklon-B,

673
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,811
were poured in on them
through holes in the roof.

674
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,164
One, two, three, four.

675
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,808
OW! Shit.

676
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:18,766
It... It's okay.

677
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,366
Now here are
the delousing chambers.

678
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,250
Typhus was a terrible
problem in the camp

679
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,085
and the lice that carried it
had to be destroyed.

680
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:58,400
Right, now we get to it.

681
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,687
So we need to
talk about Leuchter.

682
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,683
Yes, I'm coming to Leuchter.
Yeah.

683
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,890
This building was used to
delouse the prisoners' clothing.

684
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,247
They used Zyklon-B
for that, too.

685
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,049
To kill the lice.

686
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,402
We know that?
Yes.

687
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,610
For sure?
You have proof?

688
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,409
We can't take
anything for granted.

689
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:21,527
I need to see the proof.

690
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,170
Yes, I can give you proof.

691
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,207
However, in February 1988,

692
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,330
a Holocaust denier called Ernst
Zundel sent Fred Leuchter,

693
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,644
an engineer and self-styled
execution expert from America,

694
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:37,449
to test in different
parts of the camp

695
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,091
for evidence of poison gas
in the brickwork.

696
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,925
Traces of hydrogen cyanide, HCN.

697
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,129
The blue stains here

698
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:48,806
and here.

699
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,530
He came with a chisel?

700
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,086
<i>That's fight.</i>

701
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,208
And he hacked away...
Correct.

702
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,009
Illegally,
without any permission

703
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:57,570
from the authorities,

704
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,521
and then he smuggled the pieces
out of Poland in his suitcase,

705
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,125
wrapped in his dirty underwear.

706
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,931
Be that as it may.
We can criticize his methods,

707
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,128
but it's his conclusions
we have to discredit.

708
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,688
He found higher levels of HCN

709
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,364
here in the delousing chambers

710
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,647
than he did in
the gas chambers themselves.

711
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:16,245
From this he concluded that

712
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,448
no human beings
were killed at Auschwitz.

713
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,729
Only...
Only lice were killed.

714
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,048
Why are we talking
about Leuchter?

715
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:27,641
I mean, he's really not worth
the paper he's written on.

716
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:29,802
Well, so you say.
Now say why.

717
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,211
I'll tell you why.

718
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:34,040
Because of course there was a
higher concentration in here.

719
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,526
It takes 20 times more cyanide

720
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,046
to kill lice than it
does human beings.

721
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,930
Twenty times! Just
Leuchter didn't know that.

722
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,489
Oh, this whole thing
is infuriating.

723
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,403
I know.
It beggars belief.

724
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,403
Why has there not been a proper
scientific study of this whole site?

725
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,164
By reputable scientists?

726
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:54,004
Fifty years since the fact?

727
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,002
I mean, it's ridiculous.

728
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,287
Where's the proof?
Where's the evidence?

729
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:00,486
I need to know that.

730
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,722
You know what? This is a place
where you show respect.

731
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,848
Whoever you are,
you show respect.

732
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,445
I have to ask
some more questions.

733
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:07,965
Would you be happier outside?

734
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:11,240
What proof is there

735
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,009
that Leuchter's conclusions
are wrong?

736
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,205
I thought we weren't
gonna try the Holocaust.

737
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:23,849
We're not. I thought we
weren't gonna debate,

738
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,206
"Did the Holocaust happen?"

739
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,520
That's what we agreed, Heather.

740
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,090
That's what we agreed.

741
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,930
He's asking questions,
that's all.

742
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,809
He has to ask questions.

743
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,085
This isn't about memorializing,

744
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,685
it's about forensics.

745
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,041
God full of mercy
who dwells in the heights,

746
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:14,689
provide a sure rest upon
the Divine Presence's wings,

747
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,926
in the realm of the holy,
pure and glorious...

748
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,525
Pure and glorious,

749
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,127
whose shining resembles the sky.

750
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,044
I, um, bought you a drink.

751
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:01,490
I thought you might need it.

752
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,291
Thanks. I think I do.

753
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:08,969
You get what you wanted
from the visit?

754
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,290
Deborah, you mustn't
characterize me

755
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:14,805
as being without feelings.

756
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,000
I have feelings.
What did you feel today?

757
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,126
Oh.

758
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,125
Shame.

759
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,605
I have this terrible fear
that if I'd have been ordered

760
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,126
to do some of the things
we saw today that...

761
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:37,366
That I would have agreed.

762
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,165
Out of weakness.

763
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,409
Well, that is honest
of you to say so.

764
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,290
Well, that's how it is.
The world is full of cowards

765
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,045
and I've always had
this nervous feeling that...

766
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:49,645
That I was one of them.

767
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,250
There's this line from Goethe,

768
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,530
<i>"Der Fiege droht nur,
wo er sicher ist."</i>

769
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,888
It means,
"The coward only threatens

770
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,485
"when he feels secure."

771
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,840
I thought you didn't speak German.
Hmm.

772
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,287
You learned German
in the last year?

773
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,761
Well, I had to master
all these documents.

774
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,842
Irving had a 40-year
start on me,

775
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,001
so I had to catch up.

776
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,161
Did you?

777
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,809
No.

778
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,364
You know, you haven't
taken my statement yet.

779
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,489
No. No, I...
Why is that?

780
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,280
No. Why? Anthony
didn't talk to you?

781
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,522
Well, um, we made
a couple of decisions.

782
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,403
Uh, the first was that we don't
want to put this case to a jury.

783
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,881
We think it'll be safer
to put it to a judge.

784
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,411
A single judge?
Yeah.

785
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,727
What, the whole thing
decided by one man?

786
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,245
Is that a good idea?

787
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,209
Well, we were worried
about the kind of antics

788
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,687
that Irving might get up
to with an audience of 12.

789
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,524
I'm surprised it's our choice.

790
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,080
Well, it isn't.
He has to agree.

791
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:03,640
Why would he do that?

792
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,450
We have a notion.

793
00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:08,366
Mmm.

794
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,368
And the other one?
I'm sorry?

795
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,090
Well, you said
a couple of decisions.

796
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:16,404
Yes, well, um...

797
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,526
We decided,
Anthony and I, that, um,

798
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,723
it would be better
if you didn't testify.

799
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,090
Excuse me?
Well, that's it. We...

800
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,842
We don't believe
you should testify.

801
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:36,411
Why?

802
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,331
Because you don't trust me?
No. No, not at all.

803
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,084
You think I'm gonna
get emotional?

804
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,284
Well, I... After today...

805
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,727
Richard, we were at Auschwitz.

806
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,727
Let me remind you that I teach,

807
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:52,370
I lecture,
I talk to the press...

808
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,169
I know.
I order ideas.

809
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:55,890
It's what I do.
It's what I'm good at.

810
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,530
You... You don't need
to protect me.

811
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,125
No, we're not protecting you.

812
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:00,804
We're protecting our case.

813
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,844
Our strategy is to keep the focus
on Irving and Irving alone.

814
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,010
It's not a test of your
credibility, it's a test of his.

815
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:10,976
You don't think I'm good enough.

816
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,048
No, no, no.
I didn't say that at all.

817
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,126
Everything you have to say,
you've said in your book.

818
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,884
Our task is to starve Irving,

819
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,645
and putting you in a witness
box would feed him.

820
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,642
This case is happening to you,

821
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,325
but it's not about you.

822
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,085
This man hates me.
He's coming for me.

823
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:32,924
And when someone
comes after you,

824
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:34,485
you take 'em on.

825
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:40,964
You know what people will say?

826
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,049
Yes, I think I do.
They'll say I'm a coward.

827
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:45,576
That I was too afraid
to go on the stand

828
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:46,976
because I thought I would lose.
Yeah.

829
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,321
That's what they'll say. And
you want me to live with that?

830
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,130
It's the price you pay
for winning.

831
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,010
<i>Uh, just one question, sir.</i>

832
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,081
<i>What is it?</i>

833
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:05,407
Uh, on our side,

834
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,562
we're beginning to feel
that for the layman

835
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,722
this particular subject
may represent

836
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:11,211
an impossible challenge.

837
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,845
I see. You're asking to
dispense with a jury? We are.

838
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,048
Have you asked
Mr. Irving his views?

839
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,168
Mr. Irving?
Well, um...

840
00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:22,605
Perhaps before
Mr. Irving speaks?

841
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:23,886
Yes, go ahead.

842
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,888
We all know Mr. Irving
has devoted his life

843
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:29,883
to the study of the Third Reich.

844
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,647
I admit myself to having
sometimes struggled

845
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:34,006
with the demands
of the material.

846
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,003
I wonder if Mr. Irving
really believes it's fair

847
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,163
to ask the regular Joe or Joan
who walks in from the street

848
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:40,571
to grasp in a mere few weeks

849
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,405
what he himself has taken
a lifetime to master.

850
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:49,606
I agree.

851
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,251
The issues before the court
are sufficiently complex

852
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,162
to require the attention
of a learned judge,

853
00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:58,811
and too complex
to confront a jury with.

854
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:01,650
Are you sure, Mr. Irving?

855
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,046
Quite sure.

856
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,082
Trial by judge
alone it is, then.

857
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,005
Thank you very much, sir.

858
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,096
This morning
we'll see the beginning

859
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,770
of an extraordinary case
in which...

860
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,336
question the evidence
for the mass killing of Jewish people

861
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:40,776
at Auschwitz during
the Second World War.

862
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:42,768
Including the movie
director, Steven Spielberg,

863
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,042
are paying
for Miss Lipstadt's defense.

864
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,043
Mr. Irving is rumored to have

865
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,600
a list of around
4,000 contributors...

866
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:51,882
Miss Lipstadt's
book, in which she refers

867
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,770
to Mr. Irving as
a Holocaust denier.

868
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:56,890
Morning, Deborah. Morning.

869
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,246
I didn't want you
to go in alone.

870
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,084
Sweet of you.
It's not sweet at all.

871
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:01,616
I just wanted to make sure
you didn't speak.

872
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,086
It's a short statement.
No, no, no. This way.

873
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:05,730
- Come on.
- Professor!

874
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,482
Julie McCarthy, NPR.
A quick word.

875
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,324
We need to hear your voice.

876
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,730
It's Julie McCarthy, NPR.
We need to hear your voice.

877
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,962
Just a quick word.
Lying Jewish bitch!

878
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,162
You think it all finished
with Hitler? It didn't.

879
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:20,811
We know which hotel you're in.
We know your room.

880
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,406
You think you're safe.
Well, you're not.

881
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,128
Morning. Morning,
everyone. Morning, everyone.

882
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,601
Good morning, everyone.
I'm looking forward to this.

883
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,011
May I say a few words?

884
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:45,801
Well, obviously...

885
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,216
Do you see that? He's gonna be
all over the front pages.

886
00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:57,323
Deborah, there's only one person
that matters and that's the judge.

887
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,496
If you don't speak in court
and you do speak to the press,

888
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,602
the judge is gonna be
furious and with just cause.

889
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:03,842
And we both know what
would solve that problem.

890
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,930
Another thing. You jog
the same way every day.

891
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:09,641
Don't.

892
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,568
What are you saying?
I'm not saying anything.

893
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,802
I'm just saying,
vary your route. Come on.

894
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,006
Vary my route?

895
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:17,411
Stay with her.

896
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:19,736
What, you think
you can get away with it?

897
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,569
<i>Let's have some order!</i>

898
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,608
Please. Press in
the public gallery.

899
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,256
Front two rows.
Take the door on the left.

900
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:26,805
Hello, Nik.
Janet

901
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,451
General public upstairs. General
public upstairs. Thank you.

902
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,090
Let the defendant
through, please.

903
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,288
This way, Miss Lipstadt.
Thank you, Clive.

904
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,291
They were lively.
Yes.

905
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,602
- How are you? All right?
- Fine, fine.

906
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:42,441
Just through here.

907
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:48,250
This is me?
This is you.

908
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,923
Good morning. Good morning.

909
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,216
- Morning, Mr. Irving.
- Good morning.

910
00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:58,536
- Good morning.
- Morning.

911
00:49:58,560 --> 00:49:59,856
Good morning.
Good morning.

912
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:01,041
Morning.

913
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,683
Good morning. I'll just
take that for you.

914
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:08,841
Thank you.
There we are.

915
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,849
As advertised.
David and Goliath.

916
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:22,646
<i>They're ready, my Lord.</i>

917
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,330
Silence!

918
00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:57,651
Court rise!

919
00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:01,881
BOW.

920
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:03,803
- Bow.
- I'm American.

921
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:05,770
Everything else but no bowing.

922
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:18,201
My Lord...

923
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,090
I intend to show that far from
being a Holocaust denier,

924
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:24,844
I have repeatedly
drawn attention

925
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,810
to major aspects
of the Holocaust.

926
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,600
These defendants
have done very real damage

927
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,762
to my professional existence.

928
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,605
By virtue of the activities
of Miss Lipstadt

929
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,445
and those who funded her
and guided her hand,

930
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,443
since 1996

931
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,570
I have seen one fearful publisher
after another falling away from me

932
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,120
and turning their backs
on me as I approach.

933
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:50,841
My Lord,

934
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,286
if we were to seek a title
for this libel action,

935
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,001
I would venture to suggest
<i>Pictures</i> at an Execution.

936
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,211
My execution.

937
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,727
The word "denier"
is particularly evil.

938
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:08,610
For the chosen victim

939
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,887
it is like being called
a wife beater or a pedophile.

940
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,360
It is enough for the label
to be attached

941
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,410
for the attachee to
be designated a pariah,

942
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,802
an outcast from normal society.

943
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,248
It is a verbal Yellow Star.

944
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:33,525
<i>So, what did you think of him?</i>

945
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,080
I thought he was oddly impressive.
Did you?

946
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:37,366
Well, did you enjoy it?

947
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,044
Look, there he is.
Look, still at it.

948
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,204
It was confusing. It was like
he already knew all of our questions.

949
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,600
Well, yes, of course he does.
We sent them to him.

950
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,410
What? You sent him our
questions in advance? What...

951
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,323
Why would you give away
our strategy?

952
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,368
Deborah, there is no strategy.

953
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,248
We're gonna box him in
with the truth.

954
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:58,845
<i>My Lord,</i>

955
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,606
Mr. Irving calls himself
a historian.

956
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,683
The truth is, however, that
he is not a historian at all.

957
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,442
He is a falsifier of history.

958
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,283
To put it bluntly, he is a liar.

959
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,248
Now, between the publication

960
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,802
of the first edition
of Hitler's War in 1977,

961
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,845
and the second edition in 1991,

962
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,241
Mr. Irving's view
of the Holocaust

963
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,800
underwent a sea change.

964
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,126
In the 1977 version,

965
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:37,808
he accepted it <i>as</i> historical
truth in all its essentials.

966
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,089
But in the 1991 edition,

967
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,600
all traces of the Holocaust
had disappeared.

968
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:52,765
So, what are the reasons for
this astounding volte-face?

969
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,766
Well, the principle reason
can be expressed

970
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,083
in one word, Leuchter.

971
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:00,521
Hmm.

972
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:05,049
Now, according to Mr. Irving,
the Leuchter report is,

973
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:06,929
"The biggest caliber shell

974
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,129
"that has yet hit
the battleship Auschwitz."

975
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:12,442
Unfortunately for Mr. Irving,

976
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,531
the Leuchter report is bunk
and he knows it.

977
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:18,923
So why did Mr. Irving

978
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,607
embrace the Leuchter report
with such enthusiasm?

979
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,808
Why did he choose
to publish it himself

980
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:26,609
and even to write
an introduction?

981
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,003
Well, the answer must be

982
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,122
that he wanted it to be true.

983
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,601
After all, if the Holocaust
hadn't happened,

984
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,401
Hitler couldn't have
ordered it or known about it.

985
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:42,970
And that's the point.

986
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,361
Shh. Please.
Please, just...

987
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,090
That was a very good start.

988
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,366
Mmm, I'm glad you're happy.

989
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,442
I saw his face when
you called him a liar.

990
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,602
I don't think he's used
to hearing things like that.

991
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,047
No, I don't think he is.
Excuse me. Miss Lipstadt?

992
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,090
Yes, that's me.
May I speak to you?

993
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,766
Yes. Um, could you give
us a minute, please?

994
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,250
I would like you to come and
meet some of my friends.

995
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,048
Friends with
something in common.

996
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,041
Would you like to sit?

997
00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:28,564
We want to know, how can
you let this happen?

998
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,406
None of us have been called.
We have to be heard.

999
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:34,961
A trial of the Holocaust
and no witnesses?

1000
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:36,690
How can that be right?

1001
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:39,120
There is a whole group of us.

1002
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,811
Deborah, we have to testify.
We have to.

1003
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,168
On behalf of the others.
For the dead.

1004
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:56,770
I make you a promise.

1005
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,321
The voice of suffering
will be heard.

1006
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,122
I promise you that.

1007
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:12,416
I was looking
at Irving all the time.

1008
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,681
Yeah, me too. Couldn't
take my eyes off him.

1009
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:15,896
He is kind of
riveting, isn't he?

1010
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:17,729
Oh, I think this could
well become a ritual.

1011
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,565
A welcome one, don't misunderstand me.

1012
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,723
Deborah? Not for me, thanks.

1013
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,929
You know, a very famous Attorney
General once told me a long time ago

1014
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,160
that one would become a much
more effective advocate...

1015
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:30,281
Can we talk privately?

1016
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:31,456
After a few glasses of claret.

1017
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:35,371
And, of course, sandwiches.

1018
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:36,646
Ah!

1019
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:37,721
Bravo.

1020
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:38,856
They're always in the cupboard.

1021
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:40,376
I have, uh, cheese sandwiches...

1022
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,323
I just talked to a survivor.

1023
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:45,011
Yeah, well, that's likely.

1024
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,969
There's several
of them in the court.

1025
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:50,689
Deborah, we're not gonna
discuss this again.

1026
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:51,976
Why not?
I've explained to you.

1027
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:53,286
Well, tell me again, Anthony.

1028
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,522
Whatever you say, the
survivors are not on trial.

1029
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:56,641
That's the end of it.

1030
00:56:56,720 --> 00:56:58,165
They confuse the issue.

1031
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,056
Oh, so you can look
a survivor in the face

1032
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,776
and you can tell her she's
not allowed to speak?

1033
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,848
You can do that? Because I can't.
I can't do it.

1034
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,136
Deborah, these people
have been through hell.

1035
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:07,366
I understand that.

1036
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:08,806
After all these years,

1037
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:10,616
they haven't been able
to process the experience.

1038
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:11,687
I understand that, too.

1039
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,004
But a trial, I'm afraid,
is not therapy.

1040
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:17,483
It's not my job to give
emotional satisfaction

1041
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:18,891
to a whole group of people

1042
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:20,769
who can never forget
what happened to them.

1043
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,529
You think they wanna
testify for themselves?

1044
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,050
It's not for themselves
they wanna testify.

1045
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,043
They wanna give voice to the
ones that didn't make it.

1046
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,811
To their families,
their friends.

1047
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,649
Anthony, I... I promised that
their voice would be heard.

1048
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:42,926
I promised.

1049
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:45,896
Well, then you'd better
go back out there

1050
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:47,490
and break your promise.

1051
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:20,645
Professor Van Pelt.

1052
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,525
May I first of all
welcome you to our country

1053
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,329
and say what a great
pleasure I had

1054
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:28,442
in reading your book
on Auschwitz.

1055
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,881
You were deeply moved to
visit the actual location?

1056
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,406
More than moved.
I was frightened.

1057
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,562
It's an awesome responsibility.

1058
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:39,256
Professor, would you agree

1059
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,851
it is the duty of historians

1060
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,764
to remain completely
unemotional?

1061
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:47,843
One's duty is to be unemotional,

1062
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:49,610
to be objective,

1063
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:51,245
but one's duty, I think,

1064
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,971
is to remain human
in the exercise.

1065
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:58,856
Can you explain
to the court, please,

1066
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,601
why it is in the very earliest
references to Auschwitz,

1067
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:04,126
published by the Russians

1068
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,680
after the capture of the
camp in January 1945,

1069
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,250
there is no reference whatsoever

1070
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,971
to the discovery
of gas chambers?

1071
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:15,125
Uh, I would need to see the
documents you refer to.

1072
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:17,244
Well, that's fair, I think.

1073
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:19,804
It is fair, my Lord.

1074
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,561
Your report quotes extensively

1075
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:27,051
from firsthand testimony

1076
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,043
of a man called Tauber.

1077
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,569
Yes. Uh, Tauber was
a Sonderkommando

1078
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:34,290
in Crematorium ll.

1079
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:35,845
He helped with the prisoners.

1080
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,571
He was interrogated
at the end of May 1945.

1081
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,085
And, in his document,

1082
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,445
what does Tauber tell us about
the liquidation procedure?

1083
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,284
The... The simulation,
please?

1084
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:53,844
What he describes is the underground
arrangement of the crematorium.

1085
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,601
The entrance was through
an undressing room.

1086
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:00,489
The prisoners went
into a corridor,

1087
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:02,324
and then through
a door on the right

1088
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:04,482
into the gas chamber.

1089
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,446
The door was closed hermetically

1090
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,684
by means of iron bars
which were screwed tight.

1091
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:14,605
The roof of the gas chamber

1092
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:18,287
was supported by concrete
columns and wire mesh pillars.

1093
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:19,600
Professor?

1094
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,283
In your simulation,

1095
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,204
that is the roof
in this big photograph here?

1096
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:26,281
Uh, yes.

1097
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:29,207
It is the self-same roof?

1098
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:30,607
<i>Yes.</i>

1099
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,808
Uh, Tauber says
the sides of these pillars,

1100
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:34,450
which went up through the roof,

1101
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,047
were of heavy
wire mesh, like this.

1102
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:41,960
What does it mean
when it says that

1103
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,606
the pillars
went up through the roof?

1104
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:46,968
Went up to the roof, presumably?

1105
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,562
Yes, but they popped
out, uh, above the roof.

1106
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,042
The pillars "popped out"?

1107
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,056
The pillars went
through a hole in the roof

1108
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,526
and the earth, which was
arranged on top of the roof,

1109
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:00,490
and then there was a little,
kind of, chimney on top of that.

1110
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:02,040
What was the purpose of that,

1111
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:03,366
architecturally speaking?

1112
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:05,323
Because these
were hollow pillars

1113
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:06,731
and these were the pillars

1114
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:08,689
in which the
crystals of Zyklon-B

1115
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,762
were inserted into
the gas chamber.

1116
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:15,091
My Lord, you can see the layout.

1117
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:17,602
You can see the pillars with

1118
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,445
the wire mesh columns
next to them.

1119
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:22,326
You have drawn in

1120
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,400
those wire mesh columns,
have you not?

1121
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,163
In the sketches
and on the computer?

1122
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:31,402
One of my students did, yes.

1123
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,767
But the wire mesh
is an addition,

1124
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:35,844
it is not based on drawings

1125
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:37,450
and blueprints, is it?

1126
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:39,683
It is based on the
drawing made by the man

1127
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:41,484
who actually made these pillars.

1128
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,562
Michael Kula.
In the camp workshop.

1129
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:44,641
And this hole

1130
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:46,889
in the roof, or these holes,

1131
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:50,043
how many wire mesh columns
were there? Four?

1132
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,050
Uh... One, two,
three, four.

1133
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,802
Professor Pelt, we are wasting
our time, really, are we not?

1134
01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:03,043
You yourself have
stood on that roof

1135
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:05,847
and looked for those holes
and not found them.

1136
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:09,208
Our experts have stood on
that roof and not found them.

1137
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:12,443
My Lord, there are no
holes in that roof.

1138
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:14,488
There never were any holes.

1139
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:18,121
Therefore they cannot have poured
cyanide capsules through that roof.

1140
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:19,440
You will appreciate,

1141
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,683
if there had been
those holes in that roof,

1142
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:24,896
which are the cardinal linchpin
of the defense in this action,

1143
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,321
they would have found them by now.
They have not found them!

1144
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:29,921
And all the eyewitnesses
on whom he relies

1145
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,401
are therefore exposed
as the liars that they are.

1146
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:40,042
Uh, my Lord,
it is now 3:56.

1147
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:42,929
Unless Mr. Rampton
wishes to say

1148
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:44,331
something to
repair the damage...

1149
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:45,845
My Lord, may I respond to this?

1150
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,971
You may.
But not until tomorrow.

1151
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:51,051
Court rise.

1152
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:54,496
Just walk.

1153
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:55,816
Say nothing. The trial took
an extraordinary turn...

1154
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:58,571
Why did Rampton drop it?
Why did he let it go?

1155
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:00,176
Deborah, there are
journalists everywhere.

1156
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:02,248
Just look straight ahead
and keep walking, please.

1157
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,402
Richard, can we get
some of your time, please?

1158
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,323
I don't have much time now.
It won't take long.

1159
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:08,687
We have an unhappy client.
Okay, yes.

1160
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:10,811
Deborah, this is disastrous.

1161
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:12,216
I'm sorry. I'm going to
have to take her. I know.

1162
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:13,287
I'm so sorry.

1163
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:14,736
A major setback for the defense

1164
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:16,728
who are now at the bottom
of an uphill struggle.

1165
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,281
Let's all calm down, please.
Try not to panic.

1166
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:21,886
Irving pulled a rabbit
out of the hat at 3:55.

1167
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:23,883
He thinks it's clever.
It isn't clever.

1168
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:25,296
No, it's not clever.
It's amateur dramatics.

1169
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:26,536
It doesn't mean
it's not effective.

1170
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:27,856
Richard is gonna
deal with this tomorrow.

1171
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:29,336
Look at these, look at these.
Not that one.

1172
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:30,576
I've looked at them.
I've seen them.

1173
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,648
I know them. Look.Look.
Perfectly clear.

1174
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,849
The Olere drawings. The US
Air Force aerial photo.

1175
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:37,922
And there they are.
I know these photos.

1176
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:39,896
I don't need to look at them.
Holes in all of them, Deborah.

1177
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:42,048
Look, look, look.
Same shape, same pattern.

1178
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:45,203
One, two, three, four.

1179
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:47,123
And you know
what Irving is gonna say?

1180
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:48,376
Irving's gonna say,
"They're not holes.

1181
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:49,736
"They're shadows,
they're forgeries,

1182
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:50,896
"they're glitches
on the negative,

1183
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:52,490
"they're paint cans
on the roof."

1184
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:54,289
Yes, and it's our job
to prove otherwise.

1185
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,176
But how are you gonna do that?
Anyway, it's too late.

1186
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:57,964
It's already out there.
It's in the press.

1187
01:03:58,040 --> 01:03:59,896
Oh, it's in the press?
So what it's in the press?

1188
01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:01,684
So Irving got what he came for.

1189
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:03,728
You know, he wanted
headlines, he got 'em.

1190
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:05,365
"No holes,
no Holocaust!"

1191
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:06,960
He wanted a catchy
phrase, he's got it.

1192
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:08,923
It's gonna... It's gonna
spread like a virus.

1193
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,001
Do you want tea?

1194
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:11,736
No, I don't want tea.
Just asking.

1195
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:13,205
Don't you see what he's doing?

1196
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:14,805
He's making it
respectable to say

1197
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:16,200
that there are
two points of view.

1198
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:18,205
People are gonna
see the news now

1199
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:19,576
and they're gonna think,
"Oh, okay.

1200
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:21,736
"Some people think there were
gas chambers at Auschwitz,

1201
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,047
"and, oh, this is interesting,
some people don't."

1202
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,696
Yes, but Deborah, you know why he
chose Auschwitz in the first place.

1203
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:28,736
Why he chose Auschwitz?
Because everybody heard of it.

1204
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:30,330
Because of its emotional impact.
No.

1205
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,482
Because“. I don't know.
What are you getting at?

1206
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,496
No. Because it wasn't built
as an extermination camp.

1207
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:35,726
It was built as a labor camp.

1208
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:37,400
- I know that.
- Then it was modified.

1209
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:38,440
Yes, I know that.

1210
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:39,806
That's why he's going after it.

1211
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,201
It's a battering ram into
a much bigger subject.

1212
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,760
Auschwitz is at the very
center of Holocaust belief,

1213
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,366
so Auschwitz is at the very
center of Holocaust denial.

1214
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:48,971
Think about it logically.

1215
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,247
It doesn't make any sense
at all what he says.

1216
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:52,651
"No holes, no Holocaust."

1217
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:54,404
He seizes one tiny fact

1218
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:56,416
and because that can't be
physically proved, he says,

1219
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,296
"Oh, well, then that throws
everything into doubt.

1220
01:04:58,320 --> 01:04:59,496
"The Nazis didn't
do any murdering.

1221
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:00,616
"They didn't do
any murdering at all."

1222
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:02,768
I know that. I wrote
a whole book about it.

1223
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:03,976
- For God's sake...
- I know that.

1224
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:05,496
It's the same
thing <i>as</i> the Hitler trick.

1225
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:06,936
It's exactly the same thing.
Exactly the same thing!

1226
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:08,086
"Give them $1,000."

1227
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:10,176
Tell me about it.
I'm the one that he did it to.

1228
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:11,576
You know, if you can't
find a piece of paper

1229
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,090
where it says, you know,

1230
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:14,525
"Please murder the Jews,"

1231
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:16,896
it means Hitler never wanted
them to die in the first place.

1232
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:18,570
"Hitler was
the Jews' best friend."

1233
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:20,847
Irving said that!
He actually said that!

1234
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:21,921
I have to go.

1235
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:23,336
Wait a minute! I
wanna say something.

1236
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:24,976
And for once I want you
all to listen to me.

1237
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,001
I'm the defendant

1238
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:27,081
and I know the rule.

1239
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:28,764
The rule is
the client instructs.

1240
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:30,569
Well, the client's instructing.

1241
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,367
The survivors go on the stand.
And I go on the stand, too.

1242
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:36,361
Gentlemen.

1243
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:40,404
Richard? Where's he going?
Richard?

1244
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:42,050
Did you hear what I just said?
Deborah!

1245
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:45,530
Richard. Richard.

1246
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:48,443
Why is he leaving?
Because he has to prepare.

1247
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:49,521
That's why he's leaving.

1248
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:50,965
He doesn't just
turn up in court.

1249
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,122
He devotes his entire day,
every minute of his day,

1250
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:55,680
rigorously, to this case and nothing but.
And that's the point!

1251
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:59,048
No, what you're not getting,
what you're ignoring,

1252
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:00,929
is that we know what
happened at Auschwitz

1253
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:02,976
because there were people
there who actually saw it.

1254
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,571
Oh, Deborah, Deborah.
Yes, yes!

1255
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:07,483
With their own eyes.

1256
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:08,766
They're called survivors.

1257
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:10,490
Yes. And put
survivors on the stand

1258
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:12,403
and Irving will humiliate them.

1259
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:14,927
Remember the Zundel trial.
Remember the Exodus trial.

1260
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:16,445
They were torn apart.

1261
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:19,570
Because survivors
don't remember.

1262
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:21,240
Not every detail.
They forget something.

1263
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,416
They say a door was on the left,
when actually it was on the right,

1264
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:24,680
and then, wham! Irving's in.

1265
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:26,816
You see? "They're liars, you
can't trust anything they say."

1266
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:28,120
That's it, that's the technique.

1267
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,482
<i>Will roll up her sleeve
and show you the tattoo</i>

1268
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:32,324
<i>to prove that, yes,
she was in Auschwitz.</i>

1269
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:34,096
Do you think
Irving's gonna respect them?

1270
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,360
You want that? Holocaust
survivors mocked and humiliated?

1271
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,164
<i>You've got to get tasteless.</i>

1272
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:39,287
<i>I shall say,</i>

1273
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,443
<i>"Mrs. Altman, how much money</i>

1274
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:45,484
<i>"have you made out of
that tattoo since 1945?"</i>

1275
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:52,400
You want more of that, do you?

1276
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:55,321
You think that's helpful?

1277
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:26,842
So, now, Mr. Irving,

1278
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:30,607
I will ask you to explain why,

1279
01:08:31,440 --> 01:08:34,887
if, as you claim, there were
no gas chambers in Auschwitz,

1280
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:40,804
the gratings taken in 1945
by the Polish authorities

1281
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,884
from Morgue 1 in Crematorium
ll were covered in cyanide,

1282
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:48,649
and why the camp's chief
architect, Karl Bischoff,

1283
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,530
specifically refers to Morgue 1

1284
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:53,489
<i>as a Vergasungskeller,</i>

1285
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:55,611
a "gassing cellar."

1286
01:08:57,400 --> 01:08:58,561
Well?

1287
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,725
I am willing to concede
that they did indeed find

1288
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,202
in the ventilator gratings
traces of cyanide.

1289
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:07,930
They did?
Yes.

1290
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:10,763
I will also concede
that it was indeed

1291
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:12,410
used as a gassing cellar.

1292
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:14,324
It was?
Yes.

1293
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:15,561
Good. So...

1294
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:18,285
Gassing what?

1295
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:20,523
Well, I think
the evidence is clear

1296
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:24,210
that the room was used
as a gassing cellar

1297
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:26,282
for fumigating cadavers.

1298
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:30,648
Fumigating cadavers?
Yes.

1299
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:32,768
Why exactly do you say that?

1300
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:35,803
That is what mortuaries are for.

1301
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,167
In mortuaries you put cadavers.

1302
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,409
What is the evidence
that that room

1303
01:09:40,480 --> 01:09:42,562
was used for gassing corpses?

1304
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:44,525
That is what it was built for.

1305
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:46,523
I'm sorry, this, uh,

1306
01:09:47,480 --> 01:09:48,970
seems a crude question,

1307
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:51,526
but what is the point
of gassing a corpse?

1308
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:53,725
Because, my Lord,

1309
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:55,848
they came in heavily infested

1310
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,691
with the typhus-bearing
lice which had killed them.

1311
01:09:58,760 --> 01:09:59,966
Did they?

1312
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,331
Did they, Mr. Irving?
Did they indeed?

1313
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,129
Then please explain to me

1314
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:07,487
why they needed
a gas-proof door

1315
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,006
with a peep hole
with double 8mm glass

1316
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:12,811
and a metal grill on the inside?

1317
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:25,529
You will remember at this time

1318
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:27,284
most of Germany
was under the weight

1319
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:28,725
of Royal Air Force
bomber command.

1320
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:32,085
There was a concern
about the need

1321
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:33,491
to build
bomb-tight shelters.

1322
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:35,722
So now it's an air-raid
shelter, is it?

1323
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:37,041
I beg your pardon?

1324
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:40,841
It is either a room for
gassing already dead corpses,

1325
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:42,650
or it's an
air-raid shelter?

1326
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:44,643
Did I say either/or?

1327
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:47,487
In early 1943?

1328
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:49,685
An air-raid shelter?

1329
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:51,411
When you know
perfectly well that

1330
01:10:51,480 --> 01:10:53,244
the first bombing
raid near Auschwitz

1331
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:55,846
wasn't until late 1944.

1332
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:58,045
And the placing

1333
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:01,803
of this so-called
"air-raid shelter,"

1334
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:02,881
if it was for the SS,

1335
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:05,850
it was a terribly long way from
the SS barracks, wasn't it?

1336
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:07,765
Have you thought of that?

1337
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,207
It's two and a half
miles, isn't it?

1338
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:13,246
If there was a bombing raid,

1339
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:15,243
they'd all be dead
before they got there.

1340
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:20,083
But can you really see lots
of very heavily armed men

1341
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:22,561
running the two and a
half to three miles

1342
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:24,961
from the SS barracks to a cellar

1343
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:27,168
at the far end of Birkenau?

1344
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:29,251
You see...

1345
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:32,723
I'm trying to understand

1346
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:36,722
if there was this,
this dual function,

1347
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:38,643
so see if you can help me.

1348
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:40,210
Now, if the corpses

1349
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:42,806
were also gassed there,

1350
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:44,450
then, as I understand it,

1351
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,490
they were then
sent to be incinerated?

1352
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:48,641
Yes.

1353
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:52,404
What is the point
in gassing a corpse

1354
01:11:52,480 --> 01:11:54,403
that is about to be burnt?

1355
01:11:58,360 --> 01:11:59,725
I'm not sure, saying this

1356
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:01,723
off the top of my head, Mr.
Rampton.

1357
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:04,288
I'm not a Holocaust historian,

1358
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:06,806
I'm a Hitler historian.

1359
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:10,089
Then why don't you keep your
mouth shut about the Holocaust?

1360
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,485
The truth is, as usual,
Mr. Irving,

1361
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:14,721
you jump in off the board

1362
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:16,689
spouting whatever rubbish
comes into your head

1363
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,411
in order to avoid
the obvious conclusion.

1364
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,126
This is not because
you're a rotten historian.

1365
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:25,761
It's because you're
a bent one, as well.

1366
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:11,925
Come in!

1367
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:24,128
Um, forgive me.
I should have rung,

1368
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:25,770
but I thought
it would be interesting

1369
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:27,405
to see where you lived.

1370
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,369
Is that all right?
Yes, of course.

1371
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:33,256
Come in, please.
Thank you. Thank you.

1372
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:35,726
It's, uh, very messy.

1373
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:37,848
Well, that's not
going to bother me.

1374
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:42,405
Let's see, the, um, 1995
Pommard les Epenots.

1375
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:44,931
Uh, it's rather special,
I think.

1376
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:46,411
You've had it before, remember?

1377
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:48,050
Oh, uh, yes.

1378
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:51,846
Well, there are glasses here.

1379
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:54,089
Ah, shame.
I rather like plastic.

1380
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:56,445
Still, you can't
have everything.

1381
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:02,408
I like to treat
myself, don't you?

1382
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:04,326
Why should all the bad people

1383
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:06,368
have all the good
things in life?

1384
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:07,601
Like this?

1385
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:11,923
You had a good morning. Yes, I did.
I did, didn't I?

1386
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:13,968
I rather think it went my way.

1387
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:15,485
Cheers.
Cheers.

1388
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:16,800
Mmm.

1389
01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:19,841
It's paying off.
What is?

1390
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:22,289
Your technique.
That thing you do.

1391
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:23,725
You never catch his eye.

1392
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:25,484
Ah! You've noticed, have you?

1393
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:27,376
Well, what do you think
I've been doing these...

1394
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:28,970
These past weeks?

1395
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:30,041
Please, uh...

1396
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:32,403
Sit.
Oh, thank you.

1397
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:34,881
Yes, well, it's my way of

1398
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:36,536
telling him what I think of him.

1399
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:38,927
I don't look at him. It's
getting under his skin.

1400
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:48,201
I owe you an apology.

1401
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:50,684
I can't think why.

1402
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,081
For Auschwitz.
Oh.

1403
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:56,411
I thought you were rude.

1404
01:14:57,120 --> 01:14:58,724
I thought you were late.

1405
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:00,607
But now I understand.

1406
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:02,376
You were just... You were
pacing out the distance.

1407
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:03,686
Yes.
Yes, I had to.

1408
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:06,001
Well, I understand
that from today.

1409
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:10,165
Yes, it's a scene of a crime.
I have to go to the site.

1410
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:12,971
You were preparing a case.
You had to be sure.

1411
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:15,361
However disrespectful
you seemed.

1412
01:15:15,440 --> 01:15:17,681
However heartless.

1413
01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:22,124
That's what I do.

1414
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:27,327
I didn't know what to expect.

1415
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:31,010
It was...
It was a brief.

1416
01:15:31,480 --> 01:15:33,403
I mean, my previous
brief, believe it or not,

1417
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:34,925
was from McDonald's.

1418
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:41,764
How could Auschwitz be
just another brief?

1419
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:44,085
I am sorry that

1420
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:48,324
perhaps you felt that
that's what it was to me.

1421
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:54,682
Very upsetting to see a
client in such distress.

1422
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:57,124
We didn't mean to
make you unhappy.

1423
01:15:57,240 --> 01:15:58,571
I know that.

1424
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:02,249
But I have never trusted anyone

1425
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:03,560
to do anything on my behalf

1426
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:05,404
since I was a child.

1427
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:10,247
And all I have is my
voice and my conscience

1428
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:13,244
and I have to listen to it.

1429
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:14,481
Your conscience?
Yes!

1430
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:15,686
Yes.

1431
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:19,247
They're strange
things, consciences.

1432
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:21,766
Trouble is, what feels best

1433
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,646
isn't necessarily
what works best.

1434
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:28,523
I mean, by all means,

1435
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:30,170
stand up, look the
devil in the eye,

1436
01:16:31,440 --> 01:16:32,965
tell him what you feel.

1437
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:36,251
Why not? It's very satisfying.
See what happens.

1438
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:39,564
And risk losing.

1439
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:42,844
Not just for yourself.

1440
01:16:43,480 --> 01:16:44,480
For the others.

1441
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:47,444
For everyone.
Forever.

1442
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:49,770
Or?

1443
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:53,083
Or...
You know "or."

1444
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:55,685
Stay seated.

1445
01:16:57,480 --> 01:16:58,606
Button your lip.

1446
01:17:00,480 --> 01:17:01,845
Win.

1447
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:06,647
An act of self-denial.

1448
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:18,404
Do you have any
idea how hard it is

1449
01:17:18,480 --> 01:17:21,404
to hand over your conscience
to somebody else?

1450
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:27,564
This is everything I
thought I would never do.

1451
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:34,650
All right.

1452
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:41,249
I'm gonna hand mine over
to this, uh, fly-fishing,

1453
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:44,448
wine-drinking

1454
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:45,521
Scotsman.

1455
01:18:01,440 --> 01:18:03,681
There you are.
Hello.

1456
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:06,371
Morning. Here,
let me move this.

1457
01:18:06,440 --> 01:18:07,601
Sit down.

1458
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:10,125
What is that?

1459
01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:12,681
Ah.
It's black pudding.

1460
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:13,761
It's traditional.

1461
01:18:14,440 --> 01:18:15,441
It's made of blood.

1462
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:17,329
And you wanna live until
the end of the trial?

1463
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:19,641
Well, you've cheered
up since last night.

1464
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:21,808
I've cheered up
because of last night.

1465
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:23,496
Shutting up's not
gonna be easy but...

1466
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:24,885
Oh, could I have a black pudding

1467
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:25,960
for my friend, please?

1468
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:28,367
Ignore him. I
want a bagel, please.

1469
01:18:28,440 --> 01:18:31,125
Oh, and not toasted.
Thanks.

1470
01:18:31,440 --> 01:18:33,602
Oh, I need this. It's
gonna be a tough day.

1471
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:34,841
Proving intention.

1472
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:38,046
Richard Evans
gave us plenty of places

1473
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:39,690
where Irving got
his facts wrong.

1474
01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:42,445
But we have to prove he got
'em wrong intentionally.

1475
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:44,849
He's fighting for his life.

1476
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:46,365
And remember,

1477
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:48,330
he knows the law
as well as we do.

1478
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:51,643
Unless we prove that Irving's
mistakes are deliberate,

1479
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:52,926
we lose.

1480
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:54,681
We lose.

1481
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:57,287
<i>Mr. Irving,</i>

1482
01:18:58,520 --> 01:18:59,726
the defense are claiming that

1483
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:01,768
you deliberately
falsified evidence

1484
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:03,882
to suit your own
political purposes.

1485
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:06,167
You must address that charge.

1486
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:11,321
<i>We must deal with what we</i>
call <i>"keine Liquidierung-"</i>

1487
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:15,369
Very well. We're looking first
at the November 30th entry.

1488
01:19:15,440 --> 01:19:16,680
Am I right?

1489
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:17,886
My Lord,

1490
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:19,689
if I may explain the context?

1491
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:21,000
Please.

1492
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:24,327
Heinrich Himmler, the Head
of the SS, kept a log

1493
01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:26,562
in which he made a record
of every telephone call

1494
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:28,563
he gave and received.

1495
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:30,210
In 1941,

1496
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:32,881
he called Heydrich
from Hitler's bunker

1497
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:34,724
to give him instructions.

1498
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:37,610
After the call,
he wrote some words.

1499
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:41,321
<i>"Jodentransport aus Berlin.</i>

1500
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:43,084
<i>"Keine Liquidierung.</i>

1501
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:45,447
<i>"Jodentransport aus Berlin.
Keine Liquidierung."</i>

1502
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:46,851
Which clearly means,

1503
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:50,208
"The Jew Transport from Berlin.

1504
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:52,170
"No liquidation."

1505
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:55,608
"The Jew Transport," singular,

1506
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:57,361
"from Berlin."

1507
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:00,131
<i>In Hitler's War,</i>

1508
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:02,646
you write something
completely different.

1509
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:06,004
"At 01:30,
Himmler was obliged

1510
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:09,649
"to telephone from Hitler's
bunker to Heydrich

1511
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:14,169
"the explicit order that Jews
were not to be liquidated."

1512
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,449
In other words, you
mistranslate the log

1513
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:20,002
so <i>as</i> to pretend that
this order came directly

1514
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:21,320
from Hitler, which it didn't,

1515
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:22,970
they hadn't even met that day,

1516
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:24,927
and that it applied

1517
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:28,402
not to just one particular
trainload of Jews,

1518
01:20:28,480 --> 01:20:31,324
but to all Jews
throughout Germany.

1519
01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:34,404
And in order to bolster

1520
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:36,762
this false impression,

1521
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:39,810
you omit the word
"Berlin" altogether.

1522
01:20:40,400 --> 01:20:42,050
So your claim to have

1523
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:46,728
incontrovertible proof that Hitler tried
to stop the liquidation of the Jews,

1524
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:51,131
as opposed to one particular
trainload of Jews, is false.

1525
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:54,570
You knew that then. You know it now.
It's wrong.

1526
01:20:57,200 --> 01:20:59,043
Of course,
if you privately decided

1527
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:01,088
it was a...

1528
01:21:01,440 --> 01:21:04,011
A reasonable kind
of mistake to make

1529
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:07,524
when one is reading a new
document for the first time,

1530
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:11,161
you would, uh, you would immediately
tell the court, would you not?

1531
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:12,480
Of course, I would.

1532
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:17,603
I do not feel this is a
reasonable mistake to make.

1533
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:19,850
I believe it's deliberate.

1534
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:21,081
Ha!

1535
01:21:27,280 --> 01:21:28,456
<i>In</i> Hitler's War,

1536
01:21:28,480 --> 01:21:30,687
<i>you write something
completely different.</i>

1537
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:34,411
<i>"At 01:30, Himmler was obliged</i>

1538
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:38,004
<i>"to telephone from Hitler's
bunker to Heydrich</i>

1539
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:42,808
<i>"the explicit order that Jews
were not to be liquidated."</i>

1540
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:46,202
What? Because I'm tired of it.

1541
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:49,322
You didn't even
want to be a lawyer.

1542
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:54,410
The Holocaust, the Holocaust.

1543
01:21:56,480 --> 01:21:58,448
There are other things.

1544
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:02,251
At some point isn't everyone
gonna have to let go?

1545
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:05,683
It... It's an obsession.

1546
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:07,850
How many years?

1547
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:11,411
Are they ever gonna
let go of this grievance?

1548
01:22:11,480 --> 01:22:14,165
I think it's rather
more than a grievance.

1549
01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:16,376
<i>I find</i> the <i>whole</i>

1550
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:18,448
<i>Holocaust story utterly boring.</i>

1551
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:22,082
<i>The Jews keep going on
about the Holocaust</i>

1552
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:23,889
<i>because it's the only
interesting thing</i>

1553
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:26,367
<i>which has happened to them
in 3,000 years.</i>

1554
01:22:26,440 --> 01:22:29,171
<i>I'm not
interested in the Holocaust,</i>

1555
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:31,288
<i>I don't know anyone who is.</i>

1556
01:22:32,480 --> 01:22:33,656
And that's an excerpt

1557
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:35,409
from a speech you made

1558
01:22:35,480 --> 01:22:38,450
at the Best Western Hotel
in Tampa

1559
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:42,047
on July the 25th, 1998.

1560
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:43,360
I remember speaking,

1561
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:45,243
um, I do not know
what the date was.

1562
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:49,889
You said, "I think 95%
of the thinking public

1563
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:52,322
"find the Holocaust
endlessly boring,

1564
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:54,084
"but they dare not say it

1565
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:57,289
"because it is
politically incorrect."

1566
01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:00,481
Uh, Mr. Irving,
next I want to refer you

1567
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:03,723
to a talk you gave
to the Clarendon Club,

1568
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:05,404
whatever that may be,

1569
01:23:05,480 --> 01:23:08,802
on the 19th of September, 1992.

1570
01:23:09,240 --> 01:23:14,121
Uh, the transcripts. Tab
five, my Lord, page 35.

1571
01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:15,247
Thank you.

1572
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:17,976
<i>But if there is
one thing that gets up my nose,</i>

1573
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:20,082
<i>I must admit it's this.</i>

1574
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:22,289
<i>When I switch on
my television set</i>

1575
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:24,601
<i>and I see one of them
reading our news to us.</i>

1576
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:31,006
Mr. Irving, who is the
"them" and who is the "us"?

1577
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:33,007
Trevor McDonald.

1578
01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:34,526
McDonald?

1579
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:36,364
A newsreader, my Lord.

1580
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:38,450
A black newsreader.

1581
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:42,004
Well, in fact, this is
a stock speech I used to make.

1582
01:23:42,480 --> 01:23:43,686
I used to say,

1583
01:23:43,760 --> 01:23:44,841
"In the good old days,

1584
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:46,922
"the announcer would
wear a dinner jacket.

1585
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:48,600
"Now they've got
women reading the news,

1586
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:49,641
"and they have..."

1587
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:51,449
It's just part of
a general speech.

1588
01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:55,407
Yes. "It is our news and
they're reading it to me."

1589
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:58,416
<i>If they could have their own news,
which they were reading to us,</i>

1590
01:23:58,440 --> 01:23:59,960
<i>I suppose it would be
very interesting.</i>

1591
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:02,211
<i>But for the time being,</i>

1592
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:04,487
<i>I'd be prepared
to accept that the BBC</i>

1593
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:06,967
<i>should have a
dinner-jacketed gentleman</i>

1594
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:08,536
<i>reading the important news...</i>

1595
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:11,643
<i>followed by a lady reading
the less important news...</i>

1596
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:14,056
<i>followed by Trevor McDonald
giving us all the latest news</i>

1597
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:15,570
<i>on muggings and drug busts.</i>

1598
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:19,850
"Rest lost in
loud laughter and applause."

1599
01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:22,964
Are you not appalled by that?

1600
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:24,805
Not in the least.

1601
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:26,281
This was a witty speech

1602
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:28,727
delivered after dinner to an
audience at a private club.

1603
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:30,529
You were talking to
a bunch of racists.

1604
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:32,967
No, they were not. They were
perfectly ordinary guests...

1605
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:35,247
Ordinary people? Then
why were there cheers?

1606
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:37,368
Well, obviously
they liked the jokes.

1607
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:43,842
Mr. Irving, I think
you might be advised

1608
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:45,888
to have a look
at your own diary,

1609
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:47,925
if you wouldn't mind.

1610
01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:50,606
Thirty-eight, please,
Mr. Irving, 38.

1611
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:52,125
<i>Tab 10</i>

1612
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:55,081
of the bundle K4.

1613
01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:01,930
"A quiet evening at home.
Jessica..."

1614
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:03,001
Who is Jessica?

1615
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:06,362
My little infant Child.

1616
01:25:06,440 --> 01:25:07,521
Yes.

1617
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:10,365
She was nine months
old at the time.

1618
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:13,803
Nine months old
in September 1994.

1619
01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:19,082
"Jessica is turning into
a fine little lady.

1620
01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:23,123
"She sits very upright
on an ordinary chair,

1621
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:26,522
"a product of our regular
walks to the bank, lam sure.

1622
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:31,165
"On those walks, we sing the
'binkety-bankety-bong' song.

1623
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:33,968
"She stars in a poem

1624
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:37,044
"when half-breed children
are wheeled past."

1625
01:25:38,480 --> 01:25:42,041
And then you go into italics.

1626
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:45,723
<i>"I am a baby Aryan</i>

1627
01:25:46,240 --> 01:25:48,561
<i>"Not Jewish or sectarian</i>

1628
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:51,771
<i>"I have no plans to marry</i>

1629
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:54,328
<i>"An ape or Rastafarian."</i>

1630
01:25:56,480 --> 01:25:58,323
Racist, Mr. Irving?

1631
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:00,529
Anti-Semitic, Mr. Irving?

1632
01:26:00,720 --> 01:26:02,131
I do not think so.

1633
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:05,807
Teaching your little
child this kind of poison?

1634
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:08,767
Do you think a nine-month-old
can understand words

1635
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:10,729
spoken in English
or any other language?

1636
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:12,723
This poor little child

1637
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:15,246
has been taught a racist ditty

1638
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:17,886
by her racist
and perverted father.

1639
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:20,244
Have you ever read Edward Lear?

1640
01:26:20,360 --> 01:26:21,885
Hilaire Belloc?

1641
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:25,248
They haven't brought a libel action, Mr.
Irving. You have.

1642
01:26:26,480 --> 01:26:28,482
You sued because you said that

1643
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:31,723
we had called you a racist
and an extremist.

1644
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:34,091
Yes,

1645
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:37,405
but I'm not a racist.

1646
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:41,846
Mr. Irving,

1647
01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:46,163
look at the words on the page.

1648
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:53,250
Well done, Richard.

1649
01:26:53,320 --> 01:26:55,561
That's it.
Racism, anti-Semitism

1650
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:57,051
and the guy's
a Holocaust denier.

1651
01:26:57,120 --> 01:26:59,248
I mean, we always said
it was a package deal.

1652
01:26:59,320 --> 01:27:02,244
We've got symptoms,
purpose, motive.

1653
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:04,886
I really don't see
what else they'd want.

1654
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:06,405
What did you think, Anthony?

1655
01:27:06,480 --> 01:27:07,480
What did I think?

1656
01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:09,409
I thought it was
the most boring morning

1657
01:27:09,480 --> 01:27:10,561
we've had in court so far.

1658
01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:12,608
My God, you love to be contrary.

1659
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:14,887
Well, the man's an
anti-Semite and a racist.

1660
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:16,360
It's like having
shit on your shoe.

1661
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:18,209
You wipe it off.
You don't study it.

1662
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:19,280
Thanks a lot.

1663
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:21,000
You know, my whole
life's been studying it.

1664
01:27:22,160 --> 01:27:23,969
You could hardly accuse
me of being racist.

1665
01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:25,166
Among my domestic staff

1666
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:27,242
I've had a Barbadian, a Punjabi,

1667
01:27:27,320 --> 01:27:29,084
Sri Lankan, a Pakistani.

1668
01:27:29,160 --> 01:27:31,296
And I can tell you, though, they
were all very attractive girls

1669
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:32,481
with very nice breasts.

1670
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:34,490
I'm sorry?
Can you say that again?

1671
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:37,896
<i>You know what I'm gonna miss?</i>

1672
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:39,809
- I'm gonna miss these lunches.
- Ah.

1673
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:41,405
Me, too, Richard.
Me, too.

1674
01:27:41,480 --> 01:27:42,480
Me, too.

1675
01:27:42,520 --> 01:27:43,851
The excellent chutney.

1676
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:46,366
It's something I never expected.

1677
01:27:46,440 --> 01:27:47,851
My parents made me take up law

1678
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:49,684
and the first case I get,

1679
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:51,205
I feel I'm making a difference.

1680
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:53,328
It's a wonderful feeling.

1681
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:55,085
I never, ever expected that.

1682
01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:58,851
I feel exactly
the same... Still.

1683
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:01,806
- Cheers.
- Cheers.

1684
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:06,164
All right, who wants any more
of this excellent vintage?

1685
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:07,840
- Yes, please.
- Oh, no, not for me.

1686
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:11,888
This trial has been both
long and hugely expensive,

1687
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:14,884
costing an estimated three
million pounds or more

1688
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:17,008
and running for
almost eight weeks.

1689
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:18,491
As the trial enters
its eighth week,

1690
01:28:18,560 --> 01:28:20,767
some are saying it raises
freedom-of-speech issues.

1691
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:22,256
Only the two opposing
speeches remain

1692
01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:24,123
before the judge,
Mr. Justice Gray,

1693
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:26,806
retires for what we are told
will be at least four weeks

1694
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:28,405
to consider his judgment.

1695
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:31,964
My Lord, during this trial

1696
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:34,168
we have heard from
Professor Evans and others

1697
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:35,765
of at least 25

1698
01:28:35,840 --> 01:28:38,081
major falsifications of history.

1699
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:40,770
"Well," says Mr. Irving,

1700
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:43,640
"all historians
make mistakes."

1701
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:45,486
But there is a difference

1702
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:47,369
between negligence,

1703
01:28:47,440 --> 01:28:49,249
which is random in its effect,

1704
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:53,525
and a deliberateness
which is far more one-sided.

1705
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:56,487
All Mr. Irving's
little fictions,

1706
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:59,080
all his tweaks of the evidence,

1707
01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:00,844
all tend in the same direction,

1708
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:04,766
the exculpation of Adolf Hitler.

1709
01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:07,048
He is, to use an
analogy, like the waiter

1710
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:09,327
who always gives
the wrong change.

1711
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:11,047
If he is honest,

1712
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:12,690
we may expect sometimes

1713
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:14,728
his mistakes to
favor the customers,

1714
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:16,484
sometimes himself.

1715
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:20,924
But Mr. Irving is
the dishonest waiter.

1716
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:24,286
All his mistakes
work in his favor.

1717
01:29:25,480 --> 01:29:28,450
How far, if at all,
Mr. Irving's anti-Semitism

1718
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:31,364
is the cause
of his Hitler apology,

1719
01:29:31,440 --> 01:29:34,728
or vice versa, is unimportant.

1720
01:29:35,440 --> 01:29:38,728
Whether they are taken
together or individually

1721
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:40,564
it is clear that
they have led him

1722
01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:41,880
to prostitute his reputation

1723
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:44,281
as a serious historian

1724
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:48,241
in favor of a bogus
rehabilitation of Adolf Hitler

1725
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:49,891
and the dissemination

1726
01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:54,010
of virulent anti-Semitic
propaganda.

1727
01:29:55,640 --> 01:29:57,404
Yes, this is a question

1728
01:29:57,480 --> 01:30:00,086
I have to ask you,
Mr. Rampton.

1729
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:01,446
Yes, by all means, my Lord.

1730
01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:03,765
My question is this,

1731
01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:07,007
if somebody
is anti-Semitic,

1732
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:09,560
anti-Semitic
and extremist,

1733
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:11,200
he is perfectly capable

1734
01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:15,444
of being honestly
anti-Semitic, yes?

1735
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:19,405
He's holding those views
and expressing those views

1736
01:30:19,480 --> 01:30:21,721
because they are
indeed his views?

1737
01:30:23,200 --> 01:30:24,565
Well, yes.

1738
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:28,607
And so it seems to me,
if it comes down to it,

1739
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:31,769
that the anti-Semitism

1740
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:33,922
is a completely
separate allegation

1741
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:36,766
and has precious little bearing
on your broader charge

1742
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:38,888
that he has
manipulated the data?

1743
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:41,245
No, no, my Lord. No.

1744
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:43,243
The whole endeavor
of the defense

1745
01:30:43,320 --> 01:30:45,243
has been to prove
that the two are connected.

1746
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:48,087
But he might believe
what he is saying.

1747
01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:50,040
That is the point.

1748
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:51,889
That is why it is so important.

1749
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:56,802
My Lord, if we know that
Mr. Irving is an anti-Semite,

1750
01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:59,360
and if we know there is
no historical justification

1751
01:30:59,440 --> 01:31:00,771
for Holocaust denial,

1752
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:04,287
then surely
it is no great stretch

1753
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:06,203
to see that
the two are connected.

1754
01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:17,202
Yes. Thank you.

1755
01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:19,571
Carry on.

1756
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:25,240
What the fuck just happened?

1757
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:31,210
Anthony, what just happened?

1758
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:00,767
<i>Well? How was it?</i>

1759
01:32:03,600 --> 01:32:05,762
<i>I'll tell you
what happened at the end.</i>

1760
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:10,250
We summed up.
Irving summed up.

1761
01:32:14,120 --> 01:32:15,121
And?

1762
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:16,536
And everyone kept saying,
this is all great,

1763
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:19,928
<i>everything's gonna be fine.
And then suddenly this judge,</i>

1764
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:23,049
<i>this unbelievable character
from Masterpiece Theatre...</i>

1765
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:25,168
<i>Oh,</i> I <i>like Masterpiece
Theatre-</i> I <i>know.</i>

1766
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:27,368
Anyway, at the last minute,
he looked up and he said,

1767
01:32:27,440 --> 01:32:30,887
"Well, you know, maybe
Irving actually believes it.

1768
01:32:30,960 --> 01:32:33,566
"He's an anti-Semite
and he believes it.

1769
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:35,051
"You can't accuse
someone of lying

1770
01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:37,566
"if they genuinely believe
what they're saying."

1771
01:32:38,480 --> 01:32:39,845
That's crazy.
That's insane.

1772
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:41,968
And that's when I thought,
"I've been suckered."

1773
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:44,004
<i>I stared at this judge
for eight weeks</i>

1774
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:45,456
<i>and I thought
I was looking at wisdom,</i>

1775
01:32:45,480 --> 01:32:48,165
<i>but maybe I was just
looking at prejudice.</i>

1776
01:32:52,160 --> 01:32:54,003
Well, what can you do?

1777
01:32:54,480 --> 01:32:57,165
I just wait.
Just wait.

1778
01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:09,002
And do they tell you
the result in advance?

1779
01:33:09,080 --> 01:33:11,128
No. But my lawyers get told.

1780
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:14,205
What, they get told and they
can't tell you? You're kidding?

1781
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:16,931
Yeah. They get the verdict
24 hours in advance.

1782
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:19,128
To the minute. 09:00 a.m.
the day before,

1783
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:21,282
to give 'em time
to prepare a response.

1784
01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:22,441
And what's worse,

1785
01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:24,682
yeah, Irving gets it, too.

1786
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:26,723
Why? Because
he's his own lawyer.

1787
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:28,564
So he's allowed it and I'm not.

1788
01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:33,256
<i>I think
this trial is sending a chill</i>

1789
01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:35,681
<i>through the community
of 20th century historians.</i>

1790
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:37,536
<i>Which historian isn't thinking,</i>

1791
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:39,927
<i>"Would my work survive
this kind of scrutiny?"</i>

1792
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:42,924
<i>Show me one historian who has
not broken into a cold sweat</i>

1793
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:45,128
<i>at the thought of undergoing
similar treatment.</i>

1794
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:53,530
<i>When people glibly say,</i>

1795
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:55,808
"Oh, if I'd have
been in Germany,

1796
01:33:55,880 --> 01:33:57,644
"I would never
have collaborated,

1797
01:33:57,720 --> 01:33:58,881
"I'd have resisted,"

1798
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:01,889
I just wanna laugh.

1799
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:04,648
Do you have any idea

1800
01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:07,690
how dangerous and
difficult it was?

1801
01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:13,005
Standing up to the
enemy was arduous

1802
01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:16,527
and uncertain and exhausting.

1803
01:34:19,160 --> 01:34:20,889
But they had to do it.

1804
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:26,402
Only in hindsight that
things get called heroic.

1805
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:30,640
At the time you're just afraid.

1806
01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:36,446
Afraid of how things
will turn out.

1807
01:34:45,120 --> 01:34:46,406
Deborah Lipstadt.

1808
01:34:46,880 --> 01:34:48,325
Ah, good. There you are.

1809
01:34:48,520 --> 01:34:49,681
Anthony.

1810
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:52,491
<i>Yeah. Just to say we've been told
to expect the verdict on Tuesday.</i>

1811
01:34:52,560 --> 01:34:55,370
On Tuesday?
Are you sure?

1812
01:34:55,440 --> 01:34:57,960
You know, I don't think they'd
have said it unless it were true.

1813
01:34:58,040 --> 01:34:59,256
I've been wondering if we could

1814
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:01,044
work out some kind of code.

1815
01:35:01,120 --> 01:35:03,536
<i>Like I call and say, "How's the
weather?" and you say, "Good."</i>

1816
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:05,085
<i>Meaning...
Yeah, yeah, I get it.</i>

1817
01:35:05,160 --> 01:35:07,970
Or you say the weather's bad
and that would mean...

1818
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:09,769
Only, of course,
I'd be disbarred.

1819
01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:11,960
I'd never be allowed to
practice law in England again.

1820
01:35:12,440 --> 01:35:15,330
Oh, well, there'd be an upside.

1821
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:16,881
Ah.

1822
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:53,126
Yes?

1823
01:35:54,880 --> 01:35:56,211
<i>That one.</i>

1824
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:01,286
Deborah.

1825
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:04,680
Well?

1826
01:36:14,280 --> 01:36:16,328
Out of the way,
please. Out of the way.

1827
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:18,129
Guilty! Filthy Jew!

1828
01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:20,165
Jewish scum!

1829
01:36:34,480 --> 01:36:35,481
Shame on you!

1830
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:43,771
Shame on you, Nazi lover!

1831
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:50,805
David! David! David!

1832
01:37:05,440 --> 01:37:06,441
Oh.

1833
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:13,125
- My Lord.
- Hmm?

1834
01:37:25,440 --> 01:37:27,681
Thank you, Jay.
One per person. Thank you.

1835
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:28,921
Ladies first, I think.

1836
01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:30,365
There you go. Thank you.

1837
01:37:30,440 --> 01:37:32,044
One per person.
Thank you. I'll do it.

1838
01:37:32,120 --> 01:37:35,169
<i>This massive
334-page document,</i>

1839
01:37:35,240 --> 01:37:37,846
<i>which does not yet disclose
the final verdict,</i>

1840
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:39,922
is studiously
even-handed.

1841
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:42,168
It is difficult to
say on which side

1842
01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:44,402
Mr. Justice Gray's
decision will land.

1843
01:37:44,480 --> 01:37:46,776
It praises Irving's
skill <i>as</i> a military historian,

1844
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:49,371
while at the same time
drawing attention to flaws

1845
01:37:49,440 --> 01:37:51,249
in some of his reasoning.

1846
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:07,890
Court rise.

1847
01:38:22,240 --> 01:38:25,562
<i>David Irving
v. Penguin Books Limited</i>

1848
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:27,369
<i>and Deborah Lipstadt.</i>

1849
01:38:29,480 --> 01:38:31,642
I shall read my judgment.

1850
01:38:42,840 --> 01:38:45,207
<i>It appears to me
that the correct</i>

1851
01:38:45,280 --> 01:38:47,851
<i>and inevitable inference must be</i>

1852
01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:50,924
that the falsification of
the historical record

1853
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:55,688
was deliberate and that Irving was
motivated by a desire to present events

1854
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:59,287
in a manner consistent with
his own ideological beliefs,

1855
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:01,886
even if that involved distortion

1856
01:39:01,960 --> 01:39:05,089
and manipulation
of historical evidence.

1857
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:08,010
In the result, therefore,

1858
01:39:08,080 --> 01:39:11,687
the defense of
justification, succeeds.

1859
01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:15,329
The court finds
for the defendants.

1860
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:18,010
Court rise.

1861
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:29,326
- I can't believe it!
- It's true.

1862
01:39:29,440 --> 01:39:30,885
Well done. Well done.

1863
01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:32,530
Well done.

1864
01:39:35,520 --> 01:39:36,681
<i>Mazel tov!</i>

1865
01:39:36,760 --> 01:39:38,091
You've been brilliant.
<i>Mazel tov!</i>

1866
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:39,486
You didn't let me say anything.

1867
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:40,766
I didn't say a thing.

1868
01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:42,325
Well, nor did I.
Think how I feel.

1869
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:44,482
It's not true.
It's not true, Deborah.

1870
01:39:44,560 --> 01:39:45,641
It was your book.

1871
01:39:45,720 --> 01:39:47,245
Your book held up
in every aspect.

1872
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:48,970
Every aspect. Every detail.

1873
01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:50,883
We defended it.
But it was the book.

1874
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:52,536
- I
- know, I know, I know...

1875
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:56,536
- Thank you for all your hard work.
- You are so welcome.

1876
01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:57,846
It was like a dream job.

1877
01:39:57,920 --> 01:40:00,844
Well done. Well done.

1878
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:04,611
Laura. Genius!

1879
01:40:06,600 --> 01:40:08,336
<i>This has been
called one of the most</i>

1880
01:40:08,360 --> 01:40:10,203
<i>crushing libel
judgments in history.</i>

1881
01:40:10,280 --> 01:40:11,656
<i>The judge called Mr. Irving</i>

1882
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:13,409
<i>an anti-Semite, a racist,</i>

1883
01:40:13,480 --> 01:40:15,403
<i>and a distorter of history.</i>

1884
01:40:15,880 --> 01:40:18,042
Can you tell us how you're
feeling at this time?

1885
01:40:18,120 --> 01:40:20,088
I feel terrific.
This is a wonderful day.

1886
01:40:20,200 --> 01:40:21,440
A wonderful day for everyone.

1887
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:24,320
Deborah. Deborah, how
do you feel about today's verdict?

1888
01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:27,569
Now you can speak.

1889
01:40:27,640 --> 01:40:28,971
Great.

1890
01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:30,644
Can you expand at all on that?

1891
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:34,685
Come on. Come on...
Come to the press conference!

1892
01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:37,640
<i>We saw this
as a free-speech issue.</i>

1893
01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:39,171
<i>Penguin defended
D.H. Lawrence.</i>

1894
01:40:39,240 --> 01:40:40,605
We defended Salman Rushdie.

1895
01:40:40,720 --> 01:40:41,801
It was inconceivable

1896
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:43,370
we wouldn't defend
Deborah Lipstadt.

1897
01:40:43,440 --> 01:40:44,771
She's here. She's here.

1898
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:52,528
Miss Lipstadt? Miss Lipstadt?

1899
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:53,806
Deborah?

1900
01:40:56,120 --> 01:40:58,088
Can I ask, do you
have any regrets

1901
01:40:58,160 --> 01:40:59,571
about bringing the case?

1902
01:40:59,640 --> 01:41:01,280
I don't know how to say
this often enough,

1903
01:41:01,320 --> 01:41:02,810
I didn't bring the case.

1904
01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:04,564
Mr. Irving did.

1905
01:41:04,640 --> 01:41:06,642
Although I'm not
sure he realized

1906
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:09,200
when he agreed to a trial
by a single judge,

1907
01:41:09,280 --> 01:41:10,760
that it would mean
a written judgment.

1908
01:41:10,800 --> 01:41:14,088
This judgment is gonna
stand against him forever.

1909
01:41:14,640 --> 01:41:16,856
Now, some people are saying
that the result of this trial

1910
01:41:16,880 --> 01:41:18,803
will threaten free speech.

1911
01:41:18,880 --> 01:41:20,370
I don't accept that.

1912
01:41:20,440 --> 01:41:22,442
I'm not attacking free speech.

1913
01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:25,091
On the contrary,
I've been defending it

1914
01:41:25,160 --> 01:41:27,083
against someone
who wanted to abuse it.

1915
01:41:27,480 --> 01:41:30,484
Freedom of speech means you
can say whatever you want.

1916
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:32,562
What you can't do is lie,

1917
01:41:32,640 --> 01:41:35,450
and then expect not to be
held accountable for it.

1918
01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:38,001
Not all opinions are equal

1919
01:41:38,680 --> 01:41:39,886
and some things happen,

1920
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:42,290
just like we say they do.

1921
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:43,721
Slavery happened.

1922
01:41:43,800 --> 01:41:45,689
The Black Death happened.

1923
01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:47,371
The Earth is round.

1924
01:41:47,440 --> 01:41:50,284
The ice caps are melting
and Elvis is not alive.

1925
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:52,966
Miss Lipstadt?

1926
01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:55,641
You've conducted
yourself with dignity

1927
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:56,767
throughout the trial.

1928
01:41:56,880 --> 01:41:59,360
Thank you. Uh, but I
know what that means.

1929
01:41:59,440 --> 01:42:02,011
That's code in England
for "I've shut up,"

1930
01:42:02,080 --> 01:42:04,731
and I don't promise to shut
up in the future.

1931
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:07,176
Miss Lipstadt,
how convinced were you

1932
01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:09,851
that this trial was going to
have a good outcome for you?

1933
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:14,530
Um, well, before
I came to London,

1934
01:42:14,600 --> 01:42:17,649
I was definitely not convinced
that a court of law

1935
01:42:17,720 --> 01:42:20,564
was a good place to
investigate historical truth.

1936
01:42:21,720 --> 01:42:22,721
But...

1937
01:42:23,560 --> 01:42:27,645
I underestimated
the value of a team.

1938
01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:29,924
Of real teamwork.

1939
01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:32,924
And it turns out
it's not a bad place.

1940
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:37,327
As long as you have great
lawyers with great passion.

1941
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:41,564
And, uh, my God, did I
have great lawyers.

1942
01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:48,016
Miss Lipstadt, if you could say

1943
01:42:48,040 --> 01:42:50,407
something now to David Irving,

1944
01:42:50,480 --> 01:42:51,481
what would you say?

1945
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:55,171
I wouldn't say anything
to David Irving.

1946
01:42:55,240 --> 01:42:58,642
I would say something to the
survivors and to the murdered.

1947
01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:00,370
And I would say...

1948
01:43:03,120 --> 01:43:04,770
"You were remembered.

1949
01:43:05,440 --> 01:43:08,523
"The voice of
suffering was heard."

1950
01:43:18,920 --> 01:43:20,922
You really are
quite good at this.

1951
01:43:24,760 --> 01:43:25,966
Thank you.

1952
01:43:30,280 --> 01:43:33,204
<i>I think if you
look at the judgment closely,</i>

1953
01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:36,124
<i>you'll see there are all sorts
of things there in my favor.</i>

1954
01:43:36,720 --> 01:43:38,802
<i>You're not seriously suggesting</i>

1955
01:43:38,880 --> 01:43:41,087
<i>that this judgment supports you?</i>

1956
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:44,130
<i>Well, plainly I ran
rings round the defense.</i>

1957
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:47,249
<i>My only regret is I didn't use
a mallet of sufficient caliber</i>

1958
01:43:47,320 --> 01:43:50,051
<i>to ram my case into
the thick skull of the judge.</i>

1959
01:43:50,160 --> 01:43:52,970
<i>Mr. Irving,
what people want to know</i>

1960
01:43:53,080 --> 01:43:55,924
<i>is whether, on the basis
of this judgment,</i>

1961
01:43:56,040 --> 01:43:59,442
<i>you will now stop
denying the Holocaust.</i>

1962
01:44:02,440 --> 01:44:05,523
<i>Me? Stop? Good Lord, no.</i>

1963
01:44:05,960 --> 01:44:07,576
<i>Despite the fact that</i>

1964
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:09,682
<i>the judge says,
"It appears to me..."</i>

1965
01:44:09,760 --> 01:44:11,808
<i>Hello?</i>
Deborah?

1966
01:44:12,240 --> 01:44:13,810
He seems to be saying he won.

1967
01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:17,043
I know. He used
to be a Holocaust denier,

1968
01:44:17,120 --> 01:44:18,256
<i>and now he's a verdict denier.</i>

1969
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:19,936
<i>The fact that she
didn't even dare to appear</i>

1970
01:44:19,960 --> 01:44:21,976
<i>tells you everything you need
to know about Miss Lipstadt.</i>

1971
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:23,161
Let's just turn him off.

1972
01:44:23,240 --> 01:44:24,924
<i>I don't think
her Brooklyn accent</i>

1973
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:26,650
<i>would have endeared
her to the court.</i>

1974
01:44:26,920 --> 01:44:28,524
It's Queens.