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In a 1,272-page motion
for postconviction relief,
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Kathleen Zellner lays out her evidence,
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fighting for what she says
is justice for Steven Avery.
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Zellner argues the finding
of this new evidence
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means Avery is entitled to a new trial.
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Kathleen Zellner did not
return phone calls,
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instead tweeting, "10,909."
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It's the number of days
Avery has spent in prison,
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including an overturned rape conviction
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in which he spent 18 years behind bars.
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The Wisconsin Department of Justice
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says it is confident Avery's
conviction will stand.
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The State believes, as with
Mr. Avery's prior motions,
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this one also is without merit
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and will be rejected once it
is considered by the court.
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The department continues to send
condolences to the Halbach family
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as they have to endure what they
call, "Avery's ridiculous attempts
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to re-litigate his guilty
verdict and sentence."
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The former district attorney who
helped convict Steven Avery
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of Teresa Halbach's murder in 2005
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says the latest motion for a new trial
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by Avery's attorney is "a shame."
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Avery's attorney accuses
prosecutor Ken Kratz
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of ethical violations and
fabricating evidence.
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Ken Kratz joins us from CrimeCon,
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the first ever crime convention there.
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Ken, I'd like to get your
reaction to those documents
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that were just filed on
Wednesday claiming new evidence
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and suppression of past evidence
to now try and free Steven Avery.
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What do you say to that?
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Kathleen Zellner, the
attorney for Steven Avery,
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had a really difficult position.
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She had gotten some test results back
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that didn't support their
position very well at all.
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And so, really, all she had left
was to blame others for the crime.
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Unfortunately, she chose the
ex-boyfriend of the victim in the case,
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placing the blame on him without
any kind of evidence at all.
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And for the family, and for
those of us that worked so hard
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not only to get the conviction,
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but to get some kind of
closure for the family,
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we think it's absolutely deplorable.
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The postconviction petition
is sort of a guide
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for trying to get the case back
to an evidentiary hearing.
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So, what I've done is,
I've set up the structure
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that I want to work within,
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but I never stop trying
to find new evidence.
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I'll be doing that when
I'm going to the court
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for, you know, the evidentiary hearing.
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We'll be doing that during
the evidentiary hearing.
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We'll be doing that after
the evidentiary...
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If we don't win at the
evidentiary hearing,
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we will just keep going.
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Because when you have
somebody who's innocent,
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you don't just sit back and say,
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"Well, that should do it," you know?
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Until you've got it
completely figured out...
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And that's why I'm...
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I focus so much on who
committed the crime.
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A lot of attorneys think that's
crazy, they'd never do that.
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But you have to be that committed
to someone's innocence
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and to the unfairness
of the trial they got.
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- Synced & corrected by MementMori -
-- www.addic7ed.com --
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Keep in mind,
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what courts analyze on these
postconviction cases is,
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what did this jury hear,
what were they told,
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because that's the evidence
that they convicted him on.
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And so, that's the evidence
that we're trying to undo.
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So, they're stuck with, "This
bullet went through her head."
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They can't, you know, backtrack
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and say it went through some,
you know, fleshier part
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where it maybe wouldn't pick up
bone but might still have her DNA.
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Yes.
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We can win this, we can get
the conviction vacated,
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just on the fact there's no bone
and there's wood on this fragment.
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But I want to actually see if we can
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create a similar looking fragment.
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So, we're gonna try to shoot through
the exterior of the garage,
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through red paint,
with some .22 pistols,
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and then I want to take those
fragments to Microtrace.
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Because I think we'll
pick up wood in those,
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and we may pick up the red paint,
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so then we'll know how they got it.
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When I sent the pictures out to
Luke Haag, our ballistics expert,
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he said that on the holes
he's seen on the garage,
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those are exit holes.
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Exit holes. On the inside of the garage?
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- Yeah.
- OK.
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So, it means that those holes,
if they're bullet holes,
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were created by somebody standing
outside the garage shooting in.
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You know, Jim said it looked like
somebody went on the west side,
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they picked up the fragment
from behind that panel,
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and then they just took it over
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to the east side and
laid it on the floor.
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This is Exhibit 247.
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That is my gun. I can remember
it by the scratches back here.
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- OK. You're sure of that?
- I am sure of that.
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And where did you keep
it when you lived there?
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On the gun rack that was on
the wall in the bedroom.
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OK. Did you ever use that
gun on the property?
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I fired that gun at chipmunks
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and I fired that gun at
targets all over the lot.
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I mean, I could've been standing
at the back end of the lot,
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down by the far end of the lot.
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I fired it all over the yard.
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What would you be shooting at?
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More often than not, targets.
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But targets of opportunity were gophers.
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Did you ever fire that gun
in the area of the garage?
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I fired it all around the garage.
I fired it all around the lot.
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Can you give me any kind of estimate
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of how many times you would've
fired that gun in front of you
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on that one-acre parcel?
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Maybe five or six bricks,
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which are 500 in a brick.
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Twenty-five, three thousand times.
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So, this is the board.
I want to look at this.
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That's one of the ones that
he thought was an exit hole.
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- That one's good.
- OK.
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- OK.
- OK.
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So, it looks like there
was a thin panel board.
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Then we've got, behind
it, the foamboard.
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They want samples from inside here.
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Because he can identify
the wood, he said.
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Sure.
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There's casings all over in here.
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- If I shoot through down here...
- Yep.
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So, we need the paneling,
we need the foam...
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Because it could've
ricocheted off anything.
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- That's not bad shooting.
- No, not at all.
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Wow, I hit all in one little square.
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So, did it come through?
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- Came through this wall.
- Oh, yeah.
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Look, it came through the panel.
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It looks like it went through this.
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In the plywood?
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Nope. You have to check
each individual one.
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One, two, three, four, five, six.
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I think that one might be stuck.
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It didn't puncture, it looks like.
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Which means it's gotta be
on the ground somewhere.
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Where are the rest of them?
Is this one of them? Look.
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Shine that light on
this one for a minute
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so I can just look at it
and see what it picked up.
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See that little... It's
kind of a reddish color,
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like it picked up the paint.
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Cool.
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I'd just like to recover
more of the fragments.
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- Yeah.
- Well, there's two in the wood there.
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- It looks like there are six...
- We can push them out.
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That's probably what they
did, don't you think?
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Yeah.
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Just see one and pry it out.
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I don't think it stuck, I think it may
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have hit the plywood and then dropped.
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Yeah.
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So, that's the way the
entrance hole looks on it.
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- You see it? Look at that.
- Yeah.
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It hit the plywood and dropped.
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Look how damaged that is just from...
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- That's crazy, isn't it?
- Yeah.
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Look at the wood. Wow.
That's the paneling.
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Look at that. That looks
just like our bullet.
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There it is.
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- There's one.
- OK.
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Here's the wood.
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Doesn't that look similar,
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the color and everything, to FL?
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The way the wood is
just sitting on there.
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Yeah.
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What would be helpful
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is if we could do some type
of side-by-side with FL.
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Let's see if I can pull up both.
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- So, here is...
- Ours.
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- One of ours.
- OK.
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One of your exemplar shots.
And here is FL on the left.
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And here, this gives
a little perspective.
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You've got wood sitting
right on top of lead,
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and here you've got wood
sitting right on top of lead.
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On the FL bullet, you do have this...
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this build-up of...
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- Wax?
- Some sort of material, yeah.
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Yeah.
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There's a lot of information here,
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and I think that perhaps you could
start to explain some of it.
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I mean, the different types of wood,
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the red flakes, the waxy material...
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And maybe the first answer
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is that this waxy material is
from a bullet examination,
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a ballistics examination.
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But it is interesting, though,
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that you've got some wood that's
on top of the waxy material
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and some wood that's not.
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So, let me save this so that we...
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- OK.
- We can go back to it if we need to.
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It's fascinating how it
picked all of that up.
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And that's the beauty of trace evidence,
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is that we don't just pick up,
I mean, random materials.
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We pick up materials that
something's been in contact with.
199
00:11:50,843 --> 00:11:53,580
And a lot of times, whereas
DNA can tell you...
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answer one question of "who,"
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trace can oftentimes give you
information about other questions,
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such as "how" or "in what order."
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00:12:01,955 --> 00:12:05,124
You know, even some information
about time sometimes.
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00:12:05,191 --> 00:12:08,761
And if we were to go, then, and pull
off these individual particles,
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00:12:08,828 --> 00:12:10,530
which are, you know, fairly small,
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00:12:10,597 --> 00:12:13,233
but we can pull these off and
there's enough information in these
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00:12:13,299 --> 00:12:15,735
to start to identify
information about the genus
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00:12:15,802 --> 00:12:18,071
and maybe even the species
of the wood types.
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00:12:18,137 --> 00:12:19,937
And then we can look at
the reference samples,
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the boards that you've pulled out of the
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garage that you fired through,
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00:12:22,742 --> 00:12:24,777
and possibly tie this together.
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00:12:35,154 --> 00:12:38,291
Somebody just took a bullet
fragment from the wall
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00:12:38,358 --> 00:12:40,426
and put it under the compressor.
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00:12:40,493 --> 00:12:42,228
But they had to put DNA on it.
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00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:45,679
So, I decided I wanted to figure out
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what were the sources of Teresa's DNA.
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00:12:48,801 --> 00:12:51,237
We know that the DNA on FL,
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there's only 8.6 nanograms,
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00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,509
which is a miniscule amount for blood.
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And it rules out skin cells
from the inside of the scalp
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00:13:01,814 --> 00:13:03,716
because there'd be many more.
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There'd be a much higher number.
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So, then the question becomes, "Well,
where did that DNA come from?"
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So, I started looking
at the different items
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00:13:14,661 --> 00:13:18,631
that were taken from Teresa
Halbach's residence,
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and there was a specific
request by Mark Wiegert
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00:13:22,735 --> 00:13:27,273
that the officers pick up items
that could have DNA on them.
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The thing that's strange about
what happens with those items is,
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unlike the rest of the evidence
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from her place that's picked up that day
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that goes into an evidence
locker at Calumet,
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this makes its way back
to Avery's property
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and it's repackaged.
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So we've got DNA on the bullet
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00:13:55,201 --> 00:13:59,605
that's much more consistent
with ChapStick DNA...
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than blood or the inside of the scalp.
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00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,619
I believe that what happened is that
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00:14:09,620 --> 00:14:13,000
ChapStick was removed with a swab,
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00:14:13,019 --> 00:14:16,756
because we can see cotton
fibers on the bullet...
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00:14:17,690 --> 00:14:20,993
and the ChapStick was put on the bullet.
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00:14:43,583 --> 00:14:45,418
Yeah, this is the woman to know.
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00:14:45,485 --> 00:14:48,254
- Barbara.
- I'm sorry. Nice to meet you.
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00:14:48,321 --> 00:14:49,455
Where are you from?
245
00:14:49,522 --> 00:14:51,266
- I'm from Madison.
- OK.
246
00:14:51,290 --> 00:14:52,579
We're from Minnesota, so...
247
00:14:52,580 --> 00:14:53,959
OK. It's nice to meet you.
248
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,003
- What's your name?
- Megan.
249
00:14:55,027 --> 00:14:56,362
Nice to meet you.
250
00:14:58,731 --> 00:15:01,667
Free Steven Avery! Free Brendan Dassey!
251
00:15:01,734 --> 00:15:03,870
There's a killer on the loose, guys!
252
00:15:03,936 --> 00:15:06,873
Do you want to learn more about
the Avery and Dassey case?
253
00:15:06,939 --> 00:15:09,084
Just a couple of minutes, I
could show you some things.
254
00:15:09,108 --> 00:15:11,544
Please sign the Barbara Tadych Law.
255
00:15:11,610 --> 00:15:12,770
Interrogating a child without a
256
00:15:12,780 --> 00:15:14,540
lawyer present or parent present.
257
00:15:14,660 --> 00:15:16,680
Justice for Teresa Halbach!
258
00:15:16,749 --> 00:15:17,984
Save a child's life.
259
00:15:18,951 --> 00:15:22,622
I want to pass out these petitions
for the Barbara Tadych Law
260
00:15:23,189 --> 00:15:27,393
so no minor under 16 will be
interrogated without a parent present
261
00:15:27,460 --> 00:15:28,995
or a lawyer or guardian.
262
00:15:29,061 --> 00:15:30,129
That's the goal today.
263
00:15:30,190 --> 00:15:31,459
Gotta get all of these handed out,
264
00:15:31,460 --> 00:15:33,231
all of them gone by the end of the day.
265
00:15:33,232 --> 00:15:36,035
This is the best way to raise
awareness about this, basically.
266
00:15:36,102 --> 00:15:37,470
More people need to know.
267
00:15:37,537 --> 00:15:40,139
I mean, what happened to Brendan
shouldn't have happened.
268
00:15:40,206 --> 00:15:44,243
The petitions and the affidavits
are all on Kathleen's website.
269
00:15:44,577 --> 00:15:47,580
You're a supporter. You've got more
support than you think you do.
270
00:15:47,647 --> 00:15:52,718
I hope Kathleen Zellner, after she
just put her brief in Friday,
271
00:15:52,785 --> 00:15:55,455
destroys the whole case
and Steven gets cleared
272
00:15:55,521 --> 00:15:57,089
and they both come home.
273
00:15:57,156 --> 00:15:59,258
That's what I hope. It'll happen.
274
00:16:04,864 --> 00:16:08,668
Free Steven Avery! Free Brendan Dassey!
275
00:16:08,734 --> 00:16:12,138
Free Steven Avery! Free Brendan Dassey!
276
00:16:12,205 --> 00:16:14,140
- What do you want?
- Justice!
277
00:16:14,207 --> 00:16:16,042
- When do you want it?
- Now!
278
00:16:16,108 --> 00:16:17,977
- What do we want?
- Justice!
279
00:16:18,044 --> 00:16:20,012
- When do we want it?
- Now!
280
00:16:20,079 --> 00:16:22,114
- What do we want?
- Justice!
281
00:16:22,181 --> 00:16:23,850
- When do we want it?
- Now!
282
00:16:23,916 --> 00:16:25,985
- What do we want?
- Justice!
283
00:16:26,052 --> 00:16:28,321
- When do we want it?
- Now!
284
00:16:40,466 --> 00:16:42,368
We were each in our separate offices
285
00:16:42,435 --> 00:16:43,970
on the same conference call,
286
00:16:44,030 --> 00:16:45,599
and I happened to glance at my computer
287
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,600
and up pops the email notification,
288
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,476
and I clicked on it, and
one word popped out:
289
00:16:50,543 --> 00:16:51,543
"Affirmed."
290
00:16:52,078 --> 00:16:53,179
That's all I read.
291
00:16:53,679 --> 00:16:55,281
I jumped out of my seat,
292
00:16:55,348 --> 00:16:58,351
I sprinted across the
office to Steve's office.
293
00:16:58,410 --> 00:17:00,499
She knocked on my door and she said,
294
00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:02,920
"You gotta get off the phone. We won!"
295
00:17:06,959 --> 00:17:10,530
In the two-to-one decision, a federal
appeals court panel in Chicago
296
00:17:10,596 --> 00:17:12,431
upholds a judge's ruling
297
00:17:12,498 --> 00:17:15,968
to toss out Dassey's first-degree
intentional homicide conviction.
298
00:17:16,035 --> 00:17:19,205
It's 128 pages long. I've
read through what I can.
299
00:17:19,270 --> 00:17:21,319
Bottom line, the federal judges say
300
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,360
that Dassey's confession was coerced.
301
00:17:23,376 --> 00:17:25,954
A three-judge panel of the
7th Circuit Court of Appeals
302
00:17:25,978 --> 00:17:30,550
ordered the State to retry Dassey
within 90 days or set him free.
303
00:17:56,542 --> 00:17:58,811
It's just a beautiful opinion.
304
00:17:59,812 --> 00:18:03,115
Judge Duffin's opinion floored us.
305
00:18:03,816 --> 00:18:09,221
But the opinion by Judge Rovner
was even more incredible.
306
00:18:09,622 --> 00:18:13,993
There were phrases in this
opinion that I was jealous of,
307
00:18:14,060 --> 00:18:16,679
that I thought, "Why didn't we classify
308
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,496
this interrogation that way?"
309
00:18:18,497 --> 00:18:22,735
And the one that struck me the most
was "death by a thousand cuts."
310
00:18:23,536 --> 00:18:27,373
Because when I watched that
interrogation the very first time,
311
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:28,941
that's how I felt.
312
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,879
It's almost like they were experiencing
313
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:32,880
the interrogation along with Brendan.
314
00:18:32,945 --> 00:18:35,348
It's almost like they were
inside that room with him.
315
00:18:36,115 --> 00:18:39,151
OK. Come on, buddy.
Let's get this out, OK?
316
00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:41,999
To me, the lesson here is that
317
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,000
the kinds of tactics that were used,
318
00:18:45,157 --> 00:18:47,893
when used against
somebody of Brendan's age
319
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:49,996
and with Brendan's disabilities,
320
00:18:50,730 --> 00:18:52,999
they produce an involuntary confession.
321
00:18:53,332 --> 00:18:58,170
And that's the missing piece that
the State has failed to recognize,
322
00:18:58,237 --> 00:19:00,873
and the state courts
failed to recognize,
323
00:19:00,940 --> 00:19:02,541
every step of the way.
324
00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:15,221
Not once did the state
courts ask themselves,
325
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,479
"How would a 16-year-old have understood
326
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,158
these words being said to him?
327
00:19:20,159 --> 00:19:23,095
How would a 16-year-old with
limitations like Brendan's
328
00:19:23,496 --> 00:19:25,965
understand the words being said to him?"
329
00:19:26,899 --> 00:19:30,603
That special care that the
Constitution requires
330
00:19:31,203 --> 00:19:36,108
was absent from the state
court decision in this case.
331
00:19:38,744 --> 00:19:44,517
The 7th Circuit concluded not just
that the state court was wrong
332
00:19:45,084 --> 00:19:46,919
in the way it handled Brendan's case,
333
00:19:47,687 --> 00:19:49,655
but that it was so unreasonably wrong
334
00:19:49,722 --> 00:19:54,026
that no other reasonable judge
could've ever agreed with them.
335
00:20:07,339 --> 00:20:10,676
The State of Wisconsin has
already issued a statement
336
00:20:10,743 --> 00:20:13,512
saying that they will take
it as far as they can
337
00:20:13,579 --> 00:20:15,614
to keep Dassey behind bars.
338
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,119
Tonight, after receiving
339
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,300
multiple requests to pardon Dassey,
340
00:20:19,310 --> 00:20:21,259
Governor Walker says it's
in the best interest
341
00:20:21,260 --> 00:20:23,188
to let the courts handle it.
342
00:20:23,189 --> 00:20:26,092
If he's ultimately innocent,
or there's complications,
343
00:20:26,150 --> 00:20:27,419
that should be handled by the courts,
344
00:20:27,420 --> 00:20:29,160
and that's the process they've taken.
345
00:20:29,161 --> 00:20:31,430
Attorney General Brad
Schimel has 90 days
346
00:20:31,497 --> 00:20:33,132
to figure out what he will do next.
347
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:34,539
The Wisconsin Department of Justice
348
00:20:34,540 --> 00:20:36,367
adding that they send their condolences
349
00:20:36,368 --> 00:20:37,436
to the Halbach family.
350
00:20:48,114 --> 00:20:49,582
We went out last night,
351
00:20:50,783 --> 00:20:55,054
and, um, Barbara was all
smiles and everything else.
352
00:20:56,622 --> 00:21:00,493
She said, "Soon, my boy will be home."
353
00:21:02,795 --> 00:21:05,197
When Brendan was supposed to
come home on Thanksgiving,
354
00:21:05,264 --> 00:21:07,700
you know, they were all
ready to go pick him up,
355
00:21:07,767 --> 00:21:10,302
and then they weren't allowed.
356
00:21:10,603 --> 00:21:12,323
You know, the State
fought it to that point.
357
00:21:13,572 --> 00:21:16,008
And I'm thinking that's the
same this time around.
358
00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:17,510
Mm-hmm.
359
00:21:17,576 --> 00:21:21,247
It's frustrating that a
person sitting in prison...
360
00:21:21,914 --> 00:21:25,351
You got a judge that says that the...
361
00:21:26,018 --> 00:21:28,788
the thing was coerced, or
whatever you want to call it,
362
00:21:29,420 --> 00:21:31,259
and that was dropped, or whatever,
363
00:21:31,260 --> 00:21:33,224
and then the kid is still sitting there.
364
00:21:33,225 --> 00:21:35,294
And then the State still
wants to fight it.
365
00:21:35,861 --> 00:21:39,598
What's left? They don't got no
other evidence against the kid.
366
00:21:40,132 --> 00:21:42,768
Nothing. Why are they fighting it?
367
00:21:42,835 --> 00:21:45,137
So many twists and turns.
Where does it go from here?
368
00:21:45,204 --> 00:21:48,240
Well, look, the Wisconsin authorities
now have to make a decision.
369
00:21:48,307 --> 00:21:50,042
There are one of three
things they can do.
370
00:21:50,109 --> 00:21:53,946
Number one, they can go to the
full 7th Circuit Court of Appeals.
371
00:21:54,013 --> 00:21:56,081
Remember, only three judge decided this.
372
00:21:56,140 --> 00:21:57,659
You've got the opportunity to say,
373
00:21:57,660 --> 00:21:59,500
"We want the whole court to review it."
374
00:21:59,540 --> 00:22:01,863
The other thing they can do is
appeal to the US Supreme Court.
375
00:22:01,887 --> 00:22:04,156
I don't think the US Supreme
Court is gonna hear this.
376
00:22:04,220 --> 00:22:05,819
And the other thing they could do,
377
00:22:05,820 --> 00:22:07,820
which is what I think
that they should do,
378
00:22:07,830 --> 00:22:09,061
is drop this.
379
00:22:16,168 --> 00:22:18,437
We don't have nothing to do with this,
380
00:22:18,504 --> 00:22:20,673
and the judges are
starting to see this now.
381
00:22:24,677 --> 00:22:28,414
We got some good judges who can see
382
00:22:29,215 --> 00:22:31,917
that Brendan's been
coerced and been set up.
383
00:22:34,086 --> 00:22:37,990
You know, they try to coerce
everybody to say whatever it is.
384
00:22:38,057 --> 00:22:42,094
You know, as long as it fits
their stories, it's good.
385
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,179
And the federal courts
are starting to realize
386
00:22:47,180 --> 00:22:49,180
that there's something wrong.
387
00:22:58,910 --> 00:23:05,100
In my experience, when you have
several defendants but one crime,
388
00:23:05,384 --> 00:23:09,455
when a case begins to
collapse for one defendant,
389
00:23:09,521 --> 00:23:14,526
it has benefits of
collapsing the other case.
390
00:23:14,590 --> 00:23:18,159
And having a federal court of appeals,
391
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,740
one step below the US Supreme Court,
392
00:23:20,866 --> 00:23:25,271
concur that this confession
was involuntary,
393
00:23:25,330 --> 00:23:28,479
but go further and talk about
394
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,860
the factual underpinning of this case...
395
00:23:32,011 --> 00:23:37,416
And the court described it as
"a litany of inconsistencies."
396
00:23:39,318 --> 00:23:41,553
"Shirts that changed color,
397
00:23:41,620 --> 00:23:44,423
fires that began and ended
at different times,
398
00:23:45,291 --> 00:23:48,827
bloody crime scenes without
a trace of blood remaining,
399
00:23:48,894 --> 00:23:52,264
metal handcuffs that left
no marks on the bed post.
400
00:23:52,865 --> 00:23:55,634
Dassey's story changes, he backtracks,
401
00:23:55,701 --> 00:23:59,204
officers try to pin him down
on time frames and details,
402
00:23:59,271 --> 00:24:01,674
but they are like waves on the sand.
403
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,939
Even the State has trouble telling its
404
00:24:04,940 --> 00:24:07,340
version of the timeline of the story
405
00:24:07,346 --> 00:24:09,581
in any cogent manner
406
00:24:09,648 --> 00:24:13,552
due to the fact that it changed
with each re-telling."
407
00:24:15,888 --> 00:24:19,425
What you see between the majority
and the dissent that was written,
408
00:24:20,025 --> 00:24:23,996
the dissent, I think,
is premised on the view
409
00:24:24,063 --> 00:24:26,131
that Dassey is absolutely guilty.
410
00:24:27,199 --> 00:24:30,499
The dissenting judge,
Judge Hamilton, says,
411
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:33,420
"Dassey's confession
appears to have been
412
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,890
the product of a guilty conscience,
413
00:24:35,908 --> 00:24:38,377
coaxed rather gently from him
414
00:24:38,444 --> 00:24:42,948
with standard, non-coercive
investigative techniques.
415
00:24:43,015 --> 00:24:44,316
Even assuming, however,
416
00:24:44,383 --> 00:24:47,319
that the majority's
interpretation is plausible,
417
00:24:47,380 --> 00:24:49,979
our job as a federal court reviewing
418
00:24:49,980 --> 00:24:54,030
a state conviction under 2254
419
00:24:54,050 --> 00:24:57,579
is not to consult scholarly literature
420
00:24:57,580 --> 00:25:00,800
in search of new best practices."
421
00:25:00,966 --> 00:25:03,268
Really? Why not?
422
00:25:03,335 --> 00:25:06,538
Why would you not be availing yourself
423
00:25:06,605 --> 00:25:11,510
of what experts have determined
about false confessions?
424
00:25:16,815 --> 00:25:19,318
The State ought to consider the fact
425
00:25:19,385 --> 00:25:22,855
that something could happen
to Brendan Dassey in prison
426
00:25:22,921 --> 00:25:25,891
because other inmates
tend to be very jealous.
427
00:25:25,958 --> 00:25:28,536
I mean, my clients, even when they
know they're gonna be released,
428
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:29,895
don't tell people.
429
00:25:32,531 --> 00:25:37,002
This case, with the publicity,
a lot of other inmates know
430
00:25:37,069 --> 00:25:39,872
that he has a good chance of
going home and they don't.
431
00:25:39,930 --> 00:25:42,139
So, every single minute
432
00:25:42,140 --> 00:25:44,840
that someone like Brendan
Dassey is in prison
433
00:25:44,910 --> 00:25:46,845
is a threat to their life.
434
00:25:46,910 --> 00:25:48,939
And so, leaving him in there
435
00:25:48,940 --> 00:25:51,440
when there's absolutely
no excuse for it,
436
00:25:51,460 --> 00:25:54,310
their case has collapsed, they lost,
437
00:25:54,386 --> 00:25:58,590
um, they need to just step
up and take responsibility
438
00:25:59,158 --> 00:26:02,961
for the pathetic case against him
439
00:26:03,028 --> 00:26:04,263
and let him out.
440
00:26:12,671 --> 00:26:14,006
Breaking news.
441
00:26:14,073 --> 00:26:16,575
Today, Brendan Dassey's
attorneys filed a motion
442
00:26:16,642 --> 00:26:19,478
to have their client released
from jail immediately.
443
00:26:19,545 --> 00:26:22,614
And this after yesterday's
decision by an appeals court panel
444
00:26:22,681 --> 00:26:26,852
affirming a federal judge's ruling
to overturn Dassey's conviction.
445
00:26:26,919 --> 00:26:29,121
The lawyers today say
that Brendan Dassey
446
00:26:29,188 --> 00:26:32,391
has spent 4,137 days in prison,
447
00:26:32,458 --> 00:26:35,694
in violation of the Constitution
of the United States.
448
00:26:36,962 --> 00:26:39,231
What we're asking the court
to do is to let him out
449
00:26:40,065 --> 00:26:42,968
while the lawyers continue
to fight over his case,
450
00:26:43,035 --> 00:26:45,037
to not make him wait behind bars
451
00:26:45,704 --> 00:26:48,073
while the legal wrangling continues.
452
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,782
Last fall, the 7th
Circuit basically said,
453
00:26:56,849 --> 00:26:58,650
"Hold on, let's not let
him out of prison yet.
454
00:26:58,717 --> 00:27:00,252
Let's let this appeal proceed."
455
00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:02,054
You know what? This
appeal has proceeded.
456
00:27:02,521 --> 00:27:05,357
So, we filed our motion as
soon as we possibly could,
457
00:27:05,424 --> 00:27:08,494
saying, "Unlock those
prison doors. Let him out.
458
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,730
He has waited seven months
for this appeal to proceed.
459
00:27:12,698 --> 00:27:14,399
Now it's done. It's time."
460
00:27:34,580 --> 00:27:35,919
People keep on asking me
461
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,300
if I'm gonna move out of Wisconsin
462
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,580
after I get out.
463
00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:40,926
Yep.
464
00:27:40,993 --> 00:27:43,262
Yeah, the only thing I
put on there is, like,
465
00:27:43,328 --> 00:27:45,230
"We'll have to see once I get out."
466
00:27:45,697 --> 00:27:46,765
Yeah.
467
00:27:47,032 --> 00:27:48,534
Don't answer that question.
468
00:27:49,130 --> 00:27:50,639
Yeah, because I can't say
469
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:51,936
that I'm gonna move over and away
470
00:27:51,937 --> 00:27:55,874
because I probably won't be
able to leave Wisconsin.
471
00:27:56,508 --> 00:27:57,609
Right.
472
00:27:57,809 --> 00:27:59,478
Unless I get permission.
473
00:27:59,811 --> 00:28:00,811
Right.
474
00:28:01,046 --> 00:28:03,110
It's kinda stupid.
475
00:28:03,182 --> 00:28:05,226
Yeah, especially for
someone that's innocent,
476
00:28:05,250 --> 00:28:06,952
they shouldn't have you
going through that.
477
00:28:07,386 --> 00:28:08,386
Yeah.
478
00:28:17,129 --> 00:28:19,331
What can you tell us about Mr. Dassey?
479
00:28:20,332 --> 00:28:22,501
Nothing. You can't even
have a camera in here.
480
00:28:22,568 --> 00:28:24,970
Oh. OK. Is he gonna be released today?
481
00:28:25,270 --> 00:28:26,738
Well, they didn't tell me that.
482
00:28:43,255 --> 00:28:44,622
In the last 30 minutes,
483
00:28:44,623 --> 00:28:46,399
the State moved to keep
one of Wisconsin's
484
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,259
most notorious convicted killers
485
00:28:48,260 --> 00:28:49,461
behind bars.
486
00:29:01,100 --> 00:29:02,879
In today's filing, the State argued
487
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,100
Dassey should remain behind bars,
488
00:29:05,110 --> 00:29:07,412
saying his release would
jeopardize public safety.
489
00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:15,520
Dassey's attorneys say they already
have a transition plan for him
490
00:29:15,587 --> 00:29:18,724
to move back into the community
if he should get his way.
491
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,999
There was a chance that Brendan Dassey
492
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,160
could've been released today
493
00:29:23,161 --> 00:29:24,696
from Columbia Correctional,
494
00:29:24,763 --> 00:29:28,166
but the State filed a motion only
a half hour before the deadline
495
00:29:28,233 --> 00:29:30,135
that prevented that
from happening today.
496
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:31,939
In the motion, the State says it plans
497
00:29:31,940 --> 00:29:34,350
to appeal Dassey's
overturned conviction,
498
00:29:34,370 --> 00:29:36,639
and therefore he should stay behind bars
499
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,640
while the process plays out.
500
00:30:01,420 --> 00:30:03,059
Dassey's lawyers say they will file
501
00:30:03,060 --> 00:30:04,999
a formal reply to the State.
502
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,039
Now his lawyers say that
he should be released
503
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,973
by the end of the day tomorrow,
504
00:30:08,974 --> 00:30:11,443
but that decision lies in
the hands of the courts.
505
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:14,379
We will continue to bring you all
updates on this developing story.
506
00:31:48,273 --> 00:31:49,273
Submit.
507
00:31:50,275 --> 00:31:52,310
Let's see if it's been accepted.
508
00:31:59,751 --> 00:32:01,253
- OK. Filed.
- It's done.
509
00:32:02,650 --> 00:32:03,688
Congratulations.
510
00:32:04,756 --> 00:32:05,756
Thank you.
511
00:32:08,380 --> 00:32:09,460
That's it.
512
00:32:09,528 --> 00:32:10,762
Now the waiting.
513
00:32:10,829 --> 00:32:11,829
OK.
514
00:32:25,710 --> 00:32:27,145
Good night. Thanks.
515
00:32:27,212 --> 00:32:29,692
- No problem. See you tomorrow.
- See you later.
516
00:32:38,820 --> 00:32:40,119
Defense attorneys for
517
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,400
Brendan Dassey have filed a response
518
00:32:42,427 --> 00:32:46,131
to the State's motion seeking
to keep Dassey in prison.
519
00:32:46,765 --> 00:32:48,099
In today's filing,
520
00:32:48,166 --> 00:32:52,237
Dassey's attorneys call the State's
effort an extraordinary step
521
00:32:52,304 --> 00:32:55,774
to prevent releasing an
unconstitutionally incarcerated man,
522
00:32:55,841 --> 00:32:59,845
despite two written opinions
overturning his conviction.
523
00:33:47,259 --> 00:33:48,760
Kasia Majerczak.
524
00:33:48,827 --> 00:33:51,530
OK. What's Kasia's number, do you know?
525
00:34:04,809 --> 00:34:05,809
Hey, Bob.
526
00:34:06,478 --> 00:34:07,579
Yeah, I just saw it.
527
00:34:10,515 --> 00:34:15,353
So, we are gonna go call Barb right now.
528
00:34:16,521 --> 00:34:17,789
Alright, so...
529
00:34:21,426 --> 00:34:23,795
And that breaking news
is in the Dassey case.
530
00:34:23,862 --> 00:34:27,532
The convicted killer will
remain behind bars for now.
531
00:34:28,233 --> 00:34:30,678
The State Department of
Justice argued that Dassey
532
00:34:30,702 --> 00:34:33,305
should remain behind bars
during the appeal process,
533
00:34:33,371 --> 00:34:35,240
and the court agreed.
534
00:34:41,112 --> 00:34:43,315
Attorney Schimel, what's your next move?
535
00:34:44,382 --> 00:34:46,618
Well, our next move, we'll seek a review
536
00:34:46,685 --> 00:34:49,087
by the entire 7th Circuit
Court of Appeals.
537
00:34:49,154 --> 00:34:53,224
It's called an "en banc" review of
all the judges, there are nine.
538
00:34:53,291 --> 00:34:55,126
And, um, that will...
539
00:34:55,694 --> 00:35:00,031
Filing that motion will
stay the proceedings
540
00:35:00,098 --> 00:35:02,767
from the three-judge panel,
and we'll wait that out.
541
00:35:02,834 --> 00:35:04,369
Um, you get...
542
00:35:04,436 --> 00:35:06,371
The panel is given to you randomly
543
00:35:06,705 --> 00:35:08,406
and you don't know
what you're gonna get.
544
00:35:08,873 --> 00:35:10,108
We drew...
545
00:35:10,940 --> 00:35:12,959
We drew a panel that
we knew was gonna be
546
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:14,878
a tougher one to prevail in front of.
547
00:35:14,879 --> 00:35:16,314
But ultimately here,
548
00:35:16,381 --> 00:35:20,585
do you think this will end in a
new trial for Brendan Dassey?
549
00:35:21,219 --> 00:35:22,887
Well, I don't. And we... If...
550
00:35:23,054 --> 00:35:24,756
If I thought that...
551
00:35:25,323 --> 00:35:28,460
the federal district court
was right in their decision,
552
00:35:28,526 --> 00:35:30,195
we wouldn't be pursuing the appeal.
553
00:35:30,261 --> 00:35:33,198
But we think the judge
got it very wrong.
554
00:35:33,264 --> 00:35:36,101
- Talking about the coercion...
- Right.
555
00:35:36,167 --> 00:35:38,703
- That interview with Brendan at that time.
- Right.
556
00:35:38,770 --> 00:35:39,871
What happened in this case
557
00:35:39,938 --> 00:35:44,209
were fairly typical law enforcement
methods of interviewing people.
558
00:35:44,275 --> 00:35:48,947
And certainly being in a law
enforcement interview is coercive
559
00:35:49,014 --> 00:35:51,249
just to some... to any degree.
560
00:35:52,050 --> 00:35:55,820
But it has to be something
that overbears someone's will,
561
00:35:55,887 --> 00:35:57,856
and we don't believe it got to that.
562
00:35:58,490 --> 00:35:59,979
Hopefully, we'll get some finality to
563
00:35:59,980 --> 00:36:03,160
this soon for Teresa Halbach's family.
564
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,019
The State has petitioned
565
00:36:11,020 --> 00:36:13,150
the full 7th Circuit Court of Appeals
566
00:36:13,171 --> 00:36:16,007
to rehear arguments in
the Brendan Dassey case.
567
00:36:16,074 --> 00:36:18,510
The State wants the full
court to hear arguments
568
00:36:18,576 --> 00:36:21,212
because they say that the
panel has rewritten the rules
569
00:36:21,279 --> 00:36:22,947
for juvenile interrogations.
570
00:36:23,014 --> 00:36:24,959
The State argues the ruling conflicts
571
00:36:24,983 --> 00:36:28,553
with other appeals court
findings and the Supreme Court.
572
00:36:29,740 --> 00:36:31,939
Attorneys for Dassey are asking
573
00:36:31,940 --> 00:36:33,657
the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals
574
00:36:33,658 --> 00:36:37,996
to deny the State's request to
the full court for a rehearing.
575
00:36:39,230 --> 00:36:43,802
En banc rehearing is something
that is rarely granted.
576
00:36:58,149 --> 00:37:00,452
You can just see people
fighting and fighting.
577
00:37:00,518 --> 00:37:04,189
I mean, Brendan's confession should've
been thrown out by Wisconsin.
578
00:37:04,956 --> 00:37:07,025
It's just a complete embarrassment.
579
00:37:07,625 --> 00:37:10,395
Kachinsky and Kratz. I mean...
580
00:37:11,563 --> 00:37:12,731
Unbelievable.
581
00:37:13,965 --> 00:37:16,334
So, now it's on a world stage
and they're frightened,
582
00:37:16,401 --> 00:37:17,401
so what are they doing?
583
00:37:17,435 --> 00:37:24,075
They're just clinging to this
absolutely implausible story
584
00:37:24,142 --> 00:37:26,811
that was cooked up a long time ago.
585
00:37:28,146 --> 00:37:29,146
So...
586
00:37:31,716 --> 00:37:33,852
It's quite an amazing
thing to live through.
587
00:38:17,362 --> 00:38:18,362
Hey, buddy!
588
00:38:20,064 --> 00:38:21,599
There's a mosquito in here.
589
00:38:25,136 --> 00:38:26,136
Get him?
590
00:38:26,604 --> 00:38:27,604
I dunno.
591
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,882
Oshkosh by gosh.
592
00:38:39,918 --> 00:38:42,086
We're not going by that gas station.
593
00:38:42,153 --> 00:38:43,153
Huh?
594
00:38:44,222 --> 00:38:45,222
What?
595
00:38:49,194 --> 00:38:50,194
What did you say?
596
00:38:50,995 --> 00:38:52,497
- Huh?
- What?
597
00:39:08,313 --> 00:39:09,614
What am I looking for?
598
00:39:14,285 --> 00:39:15,920
There. There's my license.
599
00:39:16,788 --> 00:39:18,656
Hey, I didn't bring my wallet.
600
00:39:19,290 --> 00:39:20,291
Come on!
601
00:39:20,358 --> 00:39:21,358
Now what?
602
00:39:22,527 --> 00:39:23,527
Are you sure?
603
00:39:24,128 --> 00:39:25,496
You think I can I get in?
604
00:39:25,797 --> 00:39:27,966
I don't know if they'd let you in.
605
00:39:30,869 --> 00:39:32,103
I'm gonna try it.
606
00:39:39,611 --> 00:39:41,646
Here. Waupun, 13 miles.
607
00:39:42,547 --> 00:39:43,547
Thank God.
608
00:39:44,449 --> 00:39:48,152
We're coming, Steven.
Sooner... Sooner or later.
609
00:39:48,219 --> 00:39:49,520
Or later, not sooner.
610
00:39:54,993 --> 00:39:56,953
- Which one is it?
- Right here.
611
00:39:57,862 --> 00:39:59,564
- Next one?
- Right here.
612
00:40:01,199 --> 00:40:02,199
Whoa!
613
00:40:08,339 --> 00:40:09,540
Hello?
614
00:40:10,750 --> 00:40:11,780
Horrible.
615
00:40:13,912 --> 00:40:15,980
Yeah, it's too long of a drive for me.
616
00:40:17,382 --> 00:40:19,851
Allan forgot his driver's
license up north,
617
00:40:19,918 --> 00:40:21,552
his wallet and everything up there.
618
00:40:23,354 --> 00:40:24,354
Yeah.
619
00:40:25,189 --> 00:40:27,425
Now I gotta take my shots
before I go in there,
620
00:40:27,492 --> 00:40:29,193
and then I gotta eat something in there.
621
00:40:31,429 --> 00:40:33,464
Because I can't bring
my needle in there.
622
00:40:44,709 --> 00:40:46,577
- Hi.
- How you doing?
623
00:40:46,644 --> 00:40:48,379
I'm good. How are you?
624
00:40:48,947 --> 00:40:50,014
Hanging in there.
625
00:40:55,019 --> 00:40:56,019
Move your hand.
626
00:40:57,588 --> 00:40:59,324
Come on. I got the door.
627
00:41:00,124 --> 00:41:01,459
Don't rush me.
628
00:41:11,436 --> 00:41:13,316
- Yeah...
- Come on, one more.
629
00:41:14,572 --> 00:41:15,573
You can do it.
630
00:41:16,207 --> 00:41:17,942
Are you gonna hang onto me, though?
631
00:41:18,276 --> 00:41:20,311
I might as well get back in the car.
632
00:41:20,378 --> 00:41:22,258
- No, no.
- I'm getting nervous.
633
00:41:22,547 --> 00:41:24,315
Up. Come on. Come on, raise it.
634
00:41:25,650 --> 00:41:27,151
Let me put the other leg there again.
635
00:41:27,218 --> 00:41:29,253
- Yeah.
- Come on, now. Up.
636
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,089
Now, pull on that car. That's it.
637
00:41:32,190 --> 00:41:33,958
God, I don't want you to fall down.
638
00:42:03,721 --> 00:42:07,258
At least Dolores will get
in there to see Steve.
639
00:42:18,569 --> 00:42:20,838
My greatest worry is...
640
00:42:21,539 --> 00:42:24,876
that me and Mama don't pass away...
641
00:42:28,312 --> 00:42:29,847
before Stevie gets out.
642
00:42:33,951 --> 00:42:35,219
Because it can happen.
643
00:42:43,995 --> 00:42:45,763
When we get to see Steven,
644
00:42:47,865 --> 00:42:49,734
he gives us all a big hug.
645
00:43:27,772 --> 00:43:29,373
Please raise your right hand.
646
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,043
Do you solemnly swear that
the testimony you shall give
647
00:43:32,110 --> 00:43:34,221
in the matter now before the
court shall be the truth,
648
00:43:34,245 --> 00:43:36,781
the whole truth and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
649
00:43:36,848 --> 00:43:38,408
- Yes, I do.
- Please be seated.
650
00:43:41,285 --> 00:43:44,255
Please state your name and spell
your last name for the record.
651
00:43:44,322 --> 00:43:46,958
Bobby Dassey. D-A-S-S-E-Y.
652
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,762
What we're undoing is
the prosecution case.
653
00:43:52,263 --> 00:43:54,098
The prosecution's case was:
654
00:43:54,165 --> 00:43:56,434
Teresa came to the property,
never left the property,
655
00:43:57,068 --> 00:43:59,270
and the car never left the property.
656
00:43:59,337 --> 00:44:00,371
That's the theory.
657
00:44:04,142 --> 00:44:07,345
And that theory is completely wrong.
658
00:44:08,713 --> 00:44:10,848
So, that's the way we're gonna undo it.
659
00:44:11,482 --> 00:44:14,352
But in that process of unraveling it,
660
00:44:15,319 --> 00:44:17,855
then it takes you back to how...
661
00:44:17,922 --> 00:44:22,827
Who testified for the State
to support this theory?
662
00:44:26,164 --> 00:44:29,200
Bobby, on October 31st, 2005,
663
00:44:29,267 --> 00:44:31,135
do you remember anything
unusual that happened
664
00:44:31,202 --> 00:44:32,970
at about 2:30 that afternoon?
665
00:44:33,571 --> 00:44:36,841
A vehicle had droven up and started
taking pictures of the van.
666
00:44:37,808 --> 00:44:40,211
Let's back up just a minute.
667
00:44:40,711 --> 00:44:42,346
Um, what did you see?
668
00:44:42,413 --> 00:44:46,717
I seen a vehicle pull
up in our driveway.
669
00:44:47,351 --> 00:44:50,021
And how do you know that it was
about 2:30 in the afternoon?
670
00:44:50,855 --> 00:44:52,890
'Cause I was going hunting that night,
671
00:44:52,957 --> 00:44:54,959
and that's the time I wanted to get out.
672
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:56,240
Alright.
673
00:44:56,260 --> 00:44:57,862
Tell the jury what you saw then.
674
00:44:58,563 --> 00:45:02,333
Uh, I seen Teresa Halbach
get out of the vehicle
675
00:45:03,067 --> 00:45:04,402
and start taking pictures.
676
00:45:05,636 --> 00:45:09,373
After seeing her taking any pictures,
did you see her do anything?
677
00:45:10,107 --> 00:45:11,375
She started...
678
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:12,919
Before I got in the shower, she actually
679
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,420
started walking over
to Steven's trailer.
680
00:45:16,914 --> 00:45:18,916
When looking at Exhibit number 61,
681
00:45:18,980 --> 00:45:20,579
could you point to the window that
682
00:45:20,580 --> 00:45:22,580
you looked out and watched things from?
683
00:45:22,954 --> 00:45:24,222
That window there.
684
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,160
- The leftmost window on the trailer?
- Yes.
685
00:45:30,261 --> 00:45:32,597
About what time do you think
that you left to go hunting?
686
00:45:33,164 --> 00:45:37,301
Probably, twenty to
three, quarter to three.
687
00:45:37,368 --> 00:45:38,368
Quarter to three?
688
00:45:39,170 --> 00:45:43,274
Mr. Dassey, when you walked out to
your vehicle to go bow hunting,
689
00:45:43,341 --> 00:45:46,744
did you notice if Teresa's vehicle
was still in the driveway?
690
00:45:46,811 --> 00:45:47,811
Yes, it was.
691
00:45:47,912 --> 00:45:49,046
- It was?
- Yeah.
692
00:45:51,048 --> 00:45:52,450
- Did you see Ms. Halbach?
- No.
693
00:45:52,783 --> 00:45:54,552
- See any signs of her at all?
- Nope.
694
00:46:06,731 --> 00:46:11,869
Bobby Dassey was the number one
witness for the prosecution
695
00:46:11,936 --> 00:46:14,005
in convicting Steven Avery.
696
00:46:21,512 --> 00:46:23,547
Bobby Dassey was lying.
697
00:46:24,048 --> 00:46:27,151
I have an affidavit from another witness
698
00:46:27,218 --> 00:46:30,421
who says that Bobby Dassey told them,
699
00:46:31,122 --> 00:46:34,225
"Teresa left the property.
I saw her leave."
700
00:46:38,796 --> 00:46:41,032
With this new witness...
701
00:46:42,633 --> 00:46:44,168
let me put it this way...
702
00:46:45,269 --> 00:46:47,872
he would never have wanted to do this.
703
00:46:50,641 --> 00:46:54,312
Bobby had told Bryan that
he saw Teresa leave.
704
00:46:55,313 --> 00:46:59,850
And Bryan has consistently
said, since 2005,
705
00:47:00,318 --> 00:47:02,453
"Bobby told me he saw Teresa leave."
706
00:47:13,930 --> 00:47:16,879
Bryan should've been
called by the defense
707
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,780
as a witness to impeach Bobby.
708
00:47:20,004 --> 00:47:21,372
That would've been huge,
709
00:47:21,439 --> 00:47:24,408
because then the jury
could've focused on,
710
00:47:24,475 --> 00:47:28,079
"Well, wait a minute. Bobby
Dassey, why would he say that?
711
00:47:28,145 --> 00:47:30,881
Why wouldn't he just say,
'Yeah, I saw her leave, too'?"
712
00:47:32,416 --> 00:47:36,354
The only reason I can think of
that Bobby Dassey would lie
713
00:47:36,721 --> 00:47:40,725
would be if the prosecution
pressured him into lying.
714
00:47:41,058 --> 00:47:45,596
So, if they said to him, "Look,
it's either gonna be you or Steven,
715
00:47:45,660 --> 00:47:47,459
and Steven has already told us
716
00:47:47,460 --> 00:47:50,640
you're the last person that saw Teresa.
717
00:47:51,635 --> 00:47:56,040
So, you either agree with that
and we're going after you,
718
00:47:56,107 --> 00:47:58,409
or you tell us a different story."
719
00:47:59,110 --> 00:48:02,446
And so, you'd have the
prosecution pressuring Bobby.
720
00:48:03,047 --> 00:48:04,849
We've already answered that question
721
00:48:04,915 --> 00:48:09,019
because we went to Bobby and we
asked him, "Were you pressured?"
722
00:48:09,286 --> 00:48:11,622
And Bobby told us, "No,
I wasn't pressured.
723
00:48:12,256 --> 00:48:14,892
I wasn't pressured.
This is what happened."
724
00:48:15,226 --> 00:48:16,861
Really, this is what happened?
725
00:48:21,632 --> 00:48:24,702
We re-interviewed Bobby
Dassey last week,
726
00:48:24,769 --> 00:48:29,006
and my investigators said
during the interview
727
00:48:29,073 --> 00:48:31,675
he was buttoned-down,
728
00:48:31,742 --> 00:48:34,745
meaning he would not reveal anything.
729
00:48:34,812 --> 00:48:38,816
He was just wanting to know what
we knew, what we were doing,
730
00:48:38,883 --> 00:48:40,251
what we were up to,
731
00:48:40,317 --> 00:48:43,087
until they mentioned
732
00:48:43,154 --> 00:48:47,425
that we had the hard
drive of the computer.
733
00:48:47,491 --> 00:48:49,126
And they said he was...
734
00:48:50,261 --> 00:48:53,297
unbelievably rattled by that.
735
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,499
We should grab the computer.
736
00:48:56,500 --> 00:48:58,920
The searching guys,
I wonder if they did.
737
00:49:23,627 --> 00:49:26,397
The police went out
with a search warrant.
738
00:49:27,598 --> 00:49:29,433
They got the Dassey computer.
739
00:49:30,167 --> 00:49:31,869
They got the hard drive.
740
00:49:32,203 --> 00:49:34,705
They got a forensic examiner,
741
00:49:34,772 --> 00:49:36,807
Detective Velie,
742
00:49:36,874 --> 00:49:39,143
to look at what was on there.
743
00:49:39,844 --> 00:49:43,714
And then Fassbender wrote
up about a paragraph.
744
00:49:51,522 --> 00:49:55,059
But we have got our own
forensic examiner,
745
00:49:55,125 --> 00:49:56,494
and we have found...
746
00:49:57,561 --> 00:50:01,665
thousands and thousands of images
747
00:50:02,333 --> 00:50:06,437
that could have only been
accessed by Bobby Dassey.
748
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,577
Torture, bondage, pedophilia.
749
00:50:15,579 --> 00:50:16,947
Nightmare stuff.
750
00:50:19,116 --> 00:50:21,018
And a fascination with death.
751
00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:24,021
Many, many bodies of drowned girls,
752
00:50:24,555 --> 00:50:26,590
decapitated girls,
753
00:50:26,924 --> 00:50:28,225
things like that.
754
00:50:29,660 --> 00:50:32,863
I mean, this is astounding, OK?
755
00:50:32,930 --> 00:50:34,865
This is what we've narrowed down
756
00:50:34,932 --> 00:50:38,269
to what they consider to
be the deviant images.
757
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,677
And this is not someone going
on there for an hour a day,
758
00:50:46,744 --> 00:50:49,713
this is compulsive, obsessive.
759
00:50:50,347 --> 00:50:51,882
Hundreds of hours.
760
00:50:52,216 --> 00:50:56,854
Thousands and thousands of photographs.
761
00:51:00,057 --> 00:51:03,594
The trial attorneys, Dean
Strang and Jerry Buting,
762
00:51:03,661 --> 00:51:07,498
were never given Detective
Velie's forensic report.
763
00:51:14,638 --> 00:51:17,207
That report would've greatly
assisted the defense
764
00:51:17,274 --> 00:51:20,144
in their Denny motion efforts,
765
00:51:20,210 --> 00:51:22,913
because they had Bobby on their list,
766
00:51:22,980 --> 00:51:25,282
but they didn't have anything on him.
767
00:51:25,349 --> 00:51:27,685
And, you know, it's well established
768
00:51:27,751 --> 00:51:31,989
that there's a link between
violent porn and homicides.
769
00:51:32,056 --> 00:51:33,591
And so, they could've used that.
770
00:51:38,262 --> 00:51:40,064
So, that's a huge Brady violation.
771
00:52:01,650 --> 00:52:03,139
We're learning a Wisconsin
772
00:52:03,140 --> 00:52:05,740
convicted murderer's case will continue.
773
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:07,639
The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals
774
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,225
will rehear the arguments
775
00:52:09,226 --> 00:52:10,861
in the Brendan Dassey case.
776
00:52:10,928 --> 00:52:13,097
Today, the appeals court
released a decision
777
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,359
granting the State's
request for en banc,
778
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,100
meaning it will go
before the full court.
779
00:52:18,302 --> 00:52:20,270
First, a federal judge in Wisconsin,
780
00:52:20,337 --> 00:52:22,306
then three appellate judges in Chicago,
781
00:52:22,373 --> 00:52:25,109
have ruled Brendan Dassey
should be free or retried,
782
00:52:25,175 --> 00:52:27,177
decisions now up in the air
783
00:52:27,244 --> 00:52:30,280
after a rare ruling to take
another look at the case,
784
00:52:30,347 --> 00:52:33,317
this time with all of the
appeals judges present.
785
00:52:50,701 --> 00:52:54,405
The court's order did not give
any reasons for the grant.
786
00:52:54,471 --> 00:52:58,475
It simply stated that en
banc review was granted
787
00:52:58,542 --> 00:53:02,079
and that Judge Rovner's
opinion was vacated.
788
00:53:08,052 --> 00:53:10,454
This, basically, moves us back in time
789
00:53:10,521 --> 00:53:12,990
to a place before this
case was ever argued
790
00:53:13,057 --> 00:53:15,459
and asks us to reargue it again.
791
00:53:15,826 --> 00:53:17,227
It's as though it never happened.
792
00:53:26,370 --> 00:53:29,273
You know, when we won,
793
00:53:29,773 --> 00:53:32,409
and when we won again,
794
00:53:33,243 --> 00:53:38,882
um, I think that Brendan,
after both those wins,
795
00:53:38,949 --> 00:53:43,020
began to get excited about
the prospect of coming home.
796
00:53:44,688 --> 00:53:48,959
So, you know, we're
gonna do our best to...
797
00:53:49,226 --> 00:53:52,629
to bring that hope back to
Brendan and his family.
798
00:53:53,897 --> 00:53:54,897
Um...
799
00:53:56,433 --> 00:53:59,903
But he's cognizant of the fact
that things have changed.
800
00:54:06,176 --> 00:54:10,114
Brendan is going to have
a very difficult time
801
00:54:10,180 --> 00:54:13,751
prevailing on his case as it stands now,
802
00:54:13,817 --> 00:54:17,688
and it's not any poor lawyering
on Northwestern's part.
803
00:54:17,755 --> 00:54:19,823
It's the AEDPA statute.
804
00:54:19,890 --> 00:54:22,760
It is the death knell
of federal habeas law.
805
00:54:24,561 --> 00:54:27,898
And they did it to get rid of
pro se prisoner petitions,
806
00:54:27,965 --> 00:54:31,068
but they gutted the habeas writ.
807
00:54:32,102 --> 00:54:34,605
And everybody knows that
that does this work.
808
00:54:34,671 --> 00:54:37,574
You don't want to... You can't win
these things in federal court.
809
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:39,819
You'd be better off to come back
810
00:54:39,820 --> 00:54:42,800
a million times on successive petitions
811
00:54:42,846 --> 00:54:45,149
with the trial court and the state court
812
00:54:45,215 --> 00:54:49,153
than you ever would to darken the
door of the federal courthouse.
813
00:54:52,460 --> 00:54:54,199
The State looks like they don't want
814
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:55,625
to give up with Brendan.
815
00:54:55,626 --> 00:54:57,194
They want to keep on going.
816
00:54:58,162 --> 00:54:59,863
Even if it is the truth,
817
00:55:00,597 --> 00:55:02,599
you know, that we're innocent,
818
00:55:02,666 --> 00:55:04,501
they're gonna still keep on fighting.
819
00:55:09,406 --> 00:55:12,075
And the federal courts,
they already threw it out,
820
00:55:12,776 --> 00:55:14,678
you know, once in Milwaukee.
821
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,651
If it was anybody else, he
would've been out already,
822
00:55:21,451 --> 00:55:22,920
right from Milwaukee.
823
00:55:22,986 --> 00:55:24,822
They would've kicked him out.
824
00:55:26,790 --> 00:55:29,193
And then the 7th Circuit threw it out.
825
00:55:30,093 --> 00:55:31,962
And now they want more judges.
826
00:55:32,896 --> 00:55:36,800
But as long as it's this case,
they'll keep on fighting it.
827
00:55:37,768 --> 00:55:40,537
You know, if the evidence ain't
there, what you gonna do?
828
00:55:42,739 --> 00:55:44,441
You know, let this innocent man
829
00:55:44,508 --> 00:55:46,743
keep on sitting in prison
for something he didn't do?
830
00:55:47,711 --> 00:55:51,181
He could be taking care of his
mom and having a good ol' time
831
00:55:51,782 --> 00:55:53,183
instead of being locked up.
832
00:55:54,952 --> 00:55:57,020
And she gotta go and
see him all the time.
833
00:55:58,088 --> 00:55:59,289
You know, that's hard.
834
00:56:09,233 --> 00:56:10,634
I work on the line...
835
00:56:11,635 --> 00:56:13,270
breakfast, dinner, and supper.
836
00:56:14,271 --> 00:56:18,275
The inmates will come in. You
know, we serve all of them.
837
00:56:19,476 --> 00:56:22,613
It's not a bad job, but
it could be a lot better.
838
00:56:25,816 --> 00:56:29,186
I'd rather be making breakfast
and dinner and supper
839
00:56:29,253 --> 00:56:32,055
for my ma and my dad, where I belong.
840
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,259
My brothers are having a hard time,
841
00:56:37,260 --> 00:56:39,400
and they always tell me it's my turn.
842
00:56:40,998 --> 00:56:44,067
My ma needs my help pretty bad.
843
00:56:47,037 --> 00:56:50,807
And I feel sorry for Teresa's family,
what they have to go through.
844
00:56:52,910 --> 00:56:58,048
Teresa can't be in peace because
she knows there's something wrong.
845
00:57:00,617 --> 00:57:02,819
She'd want the real person locked up.
846
00:57:07,324 --> 00:57:10,360
All of this is supposed
to be for justice...
847
00:57:12,329 --> 00:57:13,764
and Teresa,
848
00:57:13,830 --> 00:57:15,299
and she didn't get it yet.
849
00:57:17,968 --> 00:57:22,005
And that's not fair
to her or her family.
850
00:57:28,145 --> 00:57:29,913
I try to stay real strong.
851
00:57:32,349 --> 00:57:34,851
I don't want to feel
no bitter, no nothing.
852
00:57:40,157 --> 00:57:41,658
What the State did to me,
853
00:57:42,492 --> 00:57:46,997
I don't have to accept that
I'm an inmate or offender.
854
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:51,201
I don't think of that.
855
00:57:56,473 --> 00:58:00,477
You know, I'm just a human
being that got kidnapped.
856
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:18,920
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