1
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,079
I believe that they are convinced
2
00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,034
that these issues that we've raised
3
00:00:37,035 --> 00:00:38,959
and the scientific
testing we've done and
4
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:40,640
the assertions we're making
5
00:00:40,641 --> 00:00:42,276
have got to be litigated.
6
00:00:42,342 --> 00:00:44,478
We have to have an evidentiary hearing.
7
00:00:45,045 --> 00:00:47,147
And so, then we talked
about the scheduling of it.
8
00:00:47,214 --> 00:00:50,751
They want the chance to try to
refute the evidence in court.
9
00:00:51,118 --> 00:00:54,955
I could care less about what
they think they can do.
10
00:00:55,656 --> 00:00:57,958
I'm not worried about that. Um...
11
00:00:58,025 --> 00:01:02,763
The main thing is that Steven
gets another chance in court.
12
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,799
We agreed that we wanted the
13
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,260
alleged human pelvic
bone from the quarry
14
00:01:15,309 --> 00:01:17,411
microscopically examined
15
00:01:17,477 --> 00:01:22,249
to determine whether or not this
bone was a human pelvic bone.
16
00:01:23,850 --> 00:01:26,653
We also talked about the car.
17
00:01:27,754 --> 00:01:30,857
The logistics are lifting
it out of the ground,
18
00:01:30,924 --> 00:01:32,659
it's in this container,
19
00:01:32,726 --> 00:01:35,529
but letting us have access
to it and examine it.
20
00:01:36,697 --> 00:01:39,800
There was blood on the outside
of the rear cargo door
21
00:01:39,866 --> 00:01:43,270
that Sherry Culhane said she
couldn't link to Steven Avery.
22
00:01:44,037 --> 00:01:46,873
There's also male DNA
on the license plates
23
00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:51,478
that they said was insufficient
quantity for them to test in '05.
24
00:01:51,545 --> 00:01:53,413
But this is 12 years later.
25
00:01:54,514 --> 00:01:59,152
Steven was saved by a single
hair on the rape case,
26
00:01:59,686 --> 00:02:02,856
so I just feel like we have to do that.
27
00:02:04,157 --> 00:02:06,593
We didn't reach an agreement
on the parking light.
28
00:02:07,728 --> 00:02:10,263
They are very resistant
to having it tested.
29
00:02:11,632 --> 00:02:14,901
Their position is that she did
have that front-end damage
30
00:02:14,968 --> 00:02:18,038
prior to the 31st of October.
31
00:02:18,705 --> 00:02:21,508
Of course, they don't want
it to be damaged afterwards
32
00:02:21,575 --> 00:02:25,045
because it indicates the car
was taken off the property.
33
00:02:25,612 --> 00:02:29,883
We think, when we examine it, we
can figure out what she ran into,
34
00:02:29,950 --> 00:02:32,459
what the speed was, what the impact...
35
00:02:32,460 --> 00:02:33,786
whether she's running into it.
36
00:02:33,787 --> 00:02:36,790
I think it's much more likely the
police crashed it into something
37
00:02:36,857 --> 00:02:38,692
trying to get it back on the property.
38
00:02:39,793 --> 00:02:42,963
It's of note to me that they're balking.
39
00:02:43,764 --> 00:02:46,299
What it is, for me, is a red flag.
40
00:02:46,366 --> 00:02:48,969
There's something about
the parking light
41
00:02:49,336 --> 00:02:52,039
they don't want us to discover.
42
00:02:56,543 --> 00:02:59,112
This time, we won't leave
no stone unturned.
43
00:03:00,113 --> 00:03:02,082
Little bit longer and it'll be done.
44
00:03:05,419 --> 00:03:07,054
I think, once we go to court,
45
00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,424
I think it should be pretty
well over, you know,
46
00:03:10,490 --> 00:03:13,360
because there will be
enough there that...
47
00:03:14,928 --> 00:03:16,463
I might just be walking free.
48
00:03:19,232 --> 00:03:21,468
I'm not really worried about that,
49
00:03:21,535 --> 00:03:25,772
once I get into court and
that, or if I gotta testify.
50
00:03:26,773 --> 00:03:28,809
I ain't got no problem
with none of that.
51
00:03:31,111 --> 00:03:35,315
I think it would be terrific being
in the courtroom with Kathleen.
52
00:03:36,583 --> 00:03:39,586
She's working hard, and it's
all gonna pay off for her.
53
00:03:41,888 --> 00:03:44,124
Especially for me, my freedom.
54
00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:57,080
- Synced & corrected by MementMori -
-- www.addic7ed.com --
55
00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:03,270
New information just in
to the Action 2 newsroom.
56
00:05:03,336 --> 00:05:06,239
Steven Avery's latest attempt
at a new trial has been denied.
57
00:05:06,306 --> 00:05:07,626
The judge turns down a request...
58
00:05:07,674 --> 00:05:10,844
Denying Steven Avery's
request for a new trial.
59
00:05:10,911 --> 00:05:13,747
A Sheboygan County
judge's six-page decision
60
00:05:13,814 --> 00:05:15,348
dismissed several claims,
61
00:05:15,415 --> 00:05:18,819
saying, "The defendant has
failed to establish any grounds
62
00:05:18,885 --> 00:05:21,021
that would trigger the
right to a new trial
63
00:05:21,087 --> 00:05:22,722
in the interests of justice."
64
00:05:23,056 --> 00:05:25,692
Wisconsin Attorney General
Brad Schimel says,
65
00:05:25,750 --> 00:05:27,679
"I am pleased with the judge's decision,
66
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,428
which brings us one step closer
67
00:05:29,429 --> 00:05:32,799
to providing justice to
Teresa Halbach's family."
68
00:05:32,866 --> 00:05:36,102
Avery requested a new trial,
claiming he was set up,
69
00:05:36,169 --> 00:05:40,473
after filing a $36-million lawsuit
against Manitowoc County.
70
00:05:40,540 --> 00:05:42,242
But today, a Sheboygan County judge
71
00:05:42,309 --> 00:05:43,610
issued a decision and order
72
00:05:43,677 --> 00:05:47,447
saying that no further consideration
will be given to this issue.
73
00:06:08,068 --> 00:06:10,203
We've got to get those dates diaried.
74
00:06:10,270 --> 00:06:14,808
You've got to do the appellate date,
the motion to reconsider date.
75
00:06:14,908 --> 00:06:15,908
OK.
76
00:06:23,950 --> 00:06:25,018
This one.
77
00:06:28,288 --> 00:06:30,757
I got your email and I read the opinion.
78
00:06:30,824 --> 00:06:31,992
What a disappointment.
79
00:06:32,292 --> 00:06:36,329
Well, I mean, I think that there's
a bunch of things wrong with it,
80
00:06:36,396 --> 00:06:39,232
because there's five
issues that we raised
81
00:06:39,299 --> 00:06:41,001
that she didn't even address.
82
00:06:41,468 --> 00:06:45,405
And then, within those issues,
there's specific allegations
83
00:06:45,472 --> 00:06:49,976
that total over 50 different
items that she hasn't addressed.
84
00:06:50,300 --> 00:06:51,310
Um...
85
00:06:51,344 --> 00:06:56,149
We had an agreement with the
prosecutors for the Attorney General
86
00:06:56,216 --> 00:06:57,817
that we were gonna amend,
87
00:06:57,884 --> 00:07:00,320
that we were going to do
an evidentiary hearing.
88
00:07:00,387 --> 00:07:02,956
We're even talking about
the scheduling of it.
89
00:07:03,423 --> 00:07:09,763
And then she just abruptly issued
this very cursory opinion.
90
00:07:09,820 --> 00:07:11,779
That is 'cause she probably didn't
91
00:07:11,780 --> 00:07:13,850
yet know about the agreement
92
00:07:13,867 --> 00:07:16,200
- with the AG, did she?
- No.
93
00:07:16,260 --> 00:07:19,439
OK, so, I don't know what the AG
94
00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:20,906
is willing to do with you now,
95
00:07:20,907 --> 00:07:24,611
but the best option, I think, would
be if you get the AG on board
96
00:07:24,678 --> 00:07:28,648
with an agreed stipulated order
to withdraw this opinion.
97
00:07:28,715 --> 00:07:31,284
OK. Yeah, I think
that's what our plan...
98
00:07:31,351 --> 00:07:34,020
Well, we communicated with them.
99
00:07:34,087 --> 00:07:38,425
We sent an email out as
soon as we got her order,
100
00:07:38,491 --> 00:07:42,729
and they responded, saying that
they would talk to us tomorrow.
101
00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:44,497
So, I'd be drafting up a motion
102
00:07:44,564 --> 00:07:48,601
that you'd be confident they
would sign onto as well.
103
00:07:48,668 --> 00:07:50,730
- OK.
- And, uh...
104
00:07:50,804 --> 00:07:53,940
And have that ready to go for
your discussion tomorrow.
105
00:07:54,070 --> 00:07:55,219
Yeah, that's what I think,
106
00:07:55,220 --> 00:07:57,720
that we've got to file
it, like, right away.
107
00:07:57,777 --> 00:07:58,878
Yeah.
108
00:07:58,945 --> 00:08:00,046
OK, thank you.
109
00:08:01,348 --> 00:08:03,149
So, I think we ought to go ahead
110
00:08:03,216 --> 00:08:06,886
and start drafting a motion to vacate
111
00:08:06,953 --> 00:08:08,788
based on the agreement.
112
00:08:16,396 --> 00:08:20,333
You know, I would like to be
diplomatic about this opinion,
113
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,804
but it's hard to do that when I've
got somebody's life at stake,
114
00:08:24,871 --> 00:08:30,343
and on the receiving end of it is
someone who obviously doesn't...
115
00:08:30,410 --> 00:08:32,899
Who's making fundamental mistakes about
116
00:08:32,900 --> 00:08:34,900
the underlying facts in the case,
117
00:08:35,015 --> 00:08:38,718
and then is trying to go
one-on-one with our scientist.
118
00:08:38,785 --> 00:08:41,588
It's just not at all what
a judge should be doing.
119
00:08:41,654 --> 00:08:43,123
She should be having a hearing,
120
00:08:43,189 --> 00:08:45,825
weighing the evidence and
determining credibility.
121
00:08:45,892 --> 00:08:49,129
Then she can decide. If she
wants to deny it, fine.
122
00:08:49,195 --> 00:08:52,465
But then we all have the benefit
of the appropriate record
123
00:08:52,532 --> 00:08:53,967
to take up on appeal.
124
00:08:54,401 --> 00:08:55,869
But the message we're getting is,
125
00:08:55,935 --> 00:09:00,306
"We want you and your team
and your experts to go away,
126
00:09:00,974 --> 00:09:04,511
and we want Steven Avery
to die in prison quietly.
127
00:09:04,577 --> 00:09:06,346
Please, quietly.
128
00:09:06,413 --> 00:09:09,049
Stop looking at it.
Stop talking about it."
129
00:09:15,180 --> 00:09:16,939
- Hello?
- Hey. Hi.
130
00:09:16,940 --> 00:09:18,920
- How are you?
- Ah, pretty good.
131
00:09:18,940 --> 00:09:19,950
Good, good.
132
00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,390
So, you haven't actually
seen the opinion, right?
133
00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:24,497
No.
134
00:09:24,500 --> 00:09:27,434
Yeah, 'cause what the judge
is trying to do is say,
135
00:09:27,834 --> 00:09:30,603
because you, in your pro se petition,
136
00:09:30,670 --> 00:09:34,040
uttered the words "ineffective
assistance of counsel,"
137
00:09:34,107 --> 00:09:39,279
she wants to bar all future
references to that in our petition.
138
00:09:39,345 --> 00:09:43,783
So, I may be raising your
ineffectiveness in your petition.
139
00:09:45,318 --> 00:09:47,821
Isn't that crazy? I mean, really,
when you think about it.
140
00:09:48,788 --> 00:09:53,960
The main thing, though, is tomorrow,
I'm gonna talk to Tom Fallon
141
00:09:54,027 --> 00:09:57,564
about our agreement to do
this additional testing.
142
00:09:58,098 --> 00:09:59,699
And that's when we'll find out,
143
00:09:59,766 --> 00:10:02,936
are they going to try to
deny we have an agreement?
144
00:10:03,002 --> 00:10:05,205
Are they... What are they gonna tell us?
145
00:10:05,271 --> 00:10:07,307
So, that will be kind of key.
146
00:10:08,007 --> 00:10:10,844
If they agree that we
have the agreement,
147
00:10:10,910 --> 00:10:14,280
which we did, in fact, get from them,
148
00:10:15,081 --> 00:10:19,786
then we would try to file the
motion to vacate her order.
149
00:10:20,353 --> 00:10:21,713
Yeah, that would be good.
150
00:10:21,754 --> 00:10:25,792
That's the quickest way to correct this.
151
00:10:25,859 --> 00:10:28,461
Unless they're back-dooring
us, the DA is.
152
00:10:28,528 --> 00:10:32,632
Yeah, that's the thing that
we have to clarify tomorrow.
153
00:10:32,699 --> 00:10:35,235
The prosecutor, Tom Fallon,
154
00:10:35,301 --> 00:10:39,305
is acting as surprised as we are
that the judge issued this ruling.
155
00:10:39,370 --> 00:10:40,759
But you know what this is like.
156
00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,140
I mean, you went through this before.
157
00:10:43,476 --> 00:10:44,476
Oh, yeah.
158
00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:46,759
Well, you think
something's gonna happen,
159
00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,760
and you just get shut down.
160
00:10:49,182 --> 00:10:50,182
Yeah.
161
00:10:51,284 --> 00:10:52,719
I'm kind of used to that.
162
00:10:52,785 --> 00:10:55,088
That's why I didn't get
worried about nothing.
163
00:10:55,155 --> 00:10:56,456
Me, either. 'Cause...
164
00:10:57,824 --> 00:11:00,994
'Cause I've been in so
many situations where...
165
00:11:01,060 --> 00:11:03,796
I mean, I guess, just like
this, where you look...
166
00:11:03,860 --> 00:11:05,699
You know, a trial judge does something,
167
00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:07,466
and you're just perplexed by it.
168
00:11:07,467 --> 00:11:10,570
But you can't let it get
to you emotionally.
169
00:11:10,637 --> 00:11:12,105
- Don't you think?
- No.
170
00:11:13,130 --> 00:11:14,399
Well, yeah, because, you know,
171
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,341
you figure the DA didn't file nothing,
172
00:11:16,342 --> 00:11:18,711
so why is she ruling, you know?
173
00:11:18,778 --> 00:11:20,547
It didn't make no sense to me.
174
00:11:20,613 --> 00:11:25,285
Yeah. So, what I want to do is
just get this record in shape...
175
00:11:26,219 --> 00:11:27,720
for the appellate court.
176
00:11:27,787 --> 00:11:30,823
Because my experience has
been it's the appellate,
177
00:11:30,890 --> 00:11:36,162
it's the higher courts that make the
decisions to exonerate someone.
178
00:11:36,229 --> 00:11:37,297
Yeah.
179
00:11:37,997 --> 00:11:40,600
- OK, we'll talk tomorrow.
- Alright, then.
180
00:11:40,667 --> 00:11:42,587
- Take care.
- Have a good one. Bye-bye.
181
00:11:46,339 --> 00:11:49,108
Let's get going, OK? We've
got stuff we need to do.
182
00:11:49,442 --> 00:11:51,511
So, what we have to finalize is,
183
00:11:51,570 --> 00:11:53,879
we have to present it to the prosecutors
184
00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:55,148
in a certain way, so they don't...
185
00:11:55,149 --> 00:11:56,419
I don't want them to feel like
186
00:11:56,420 --> 00:11:58,420
we're trying to backdoor
them in any way.
187
00:11:58,484 --> 00:12:01,721
It's got to be presented exactly
like it went down at the meeting.
188
00:12:01,788 --> 00:12:03,122
- Yes.
- Yeah.
189
00:12:55,675 --> 00:13:00,146
Then we need to put in a paragraph
about today's conversation.
190
00:13:00,213 --> 00:13:04,250
We ought to say, "Prosecutors
stated that they would not...
191
00:13:04,317 --> 00:13:07,153
stated that they would
not join in the motion,
192
00:13:07,487 --> 00:13:10,156
uh, but they would not object to it."
193
00:13:11,824 --> 00:13:18,298
OK, on ten: "Additionally, prosecutors
and defense counsels agreed
194
00:13:19,132 --> 00:13:23,436
that if an evidentiary
hearing was necessary
195
00:13:24,671 --> 00:13:28,274
to resolve the issues in
the amended petition,
196
00:13:28,675 --> 00:13:34,414
the evidentiary hearing could
last four weeks or more."
197
00:13:35,615 --> 00:13:39,218
We could say, "The defendant
did not anticipate... "
198
00:13:39,552 --> 00:13:40,632
"The current order."
199
00:13:40,687 --> 00:13:43,556
Yeah, "The court filing its order...
200
00:13:45,391 --> 00:13:47,593
before the defendant
201
00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:49,395
- could notify the court."
- Yeah.
202
00:13:50,363 --> 00:13:54,033
So, Kurt, I've got the file
stamp, so it's on there.
203
00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:57,437
He forwarded it to you. So, send
it to all of the media outlets.
204
00:13:59,372 --> 00:14:01,074
- You got it.
- I'll put up a tweet.
205
00:14:01,140 --> 00:14:03,319
The email is ready, and
I'll have the attachment.
206
00:14:03,343 --> 00:14:07,880
OK, so, now we'll see what happens.
207
00:14:07,947 --> 00:14:09,449
At least we know we've done our part.
208
00:14:09,515 --> 00:14:12,085
Now we'll come at her
with an amended petition.
209
00:14:12,151 --> 00:14:14,031
- Yeah.
- Like, right away. We'll just...
210
00:14:14,554 --> 00:14:16,589
The idea is just to
make her feel like...
211
00:14:17,724 --> 00:14:19,258
She's being bombed.
212
00:14:19,325 --> 00:14:20,893
- Yeah.
- We're doing...
213
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:22,428
I think it will work.
214
00:14:22,495 --> 00:14:23,495
Yeah.
215
00:14:23,529 --> 00:14:25,631
Well, it'll give her
something to think about.
216
00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:28,199
Is she really gonna
preclude the testing,
217
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,410
you know, that we've agreed to?
218
00:14:30,436 --> 00:14:31,838
Yeah. I don't think so.
219
00:14:31,904 --> 00:14:33,973
Yeah. But you never know, so...
220
00:14:34,841 --> 00:14:36,609
We may have to go to Plan B.
221
00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:48,988
Does it, you know, deter me?
222
00:14:49,055 --> 00:14:53,126
No, it renews my focus.
223
00:14:54,861 --> 00:14:59,332
Something much more devastating
happened in the Ryan Ferguson case.
224
00:14:59,399 --> 00:15:01,434
And I remember I was
sitting in Doug's office,
225
00:15:01,501 --> 00:15:04,270
and when I stood up, it just kind of...
226
00:15:04,337 --> 00:15:07,073
It was like someone had
punched me in the stomach.
227
00:15:07,140 --> 00:15:12,512
Um, but then, that
feeling, like, lifted,
228
00:15:12,578 --> 00:15:18,151
and then I just felt a
very controlled rage
229
00:15:19,218 --> 00:15:21,621
about what I was gonna do to undo it.
230
00:15:41,174 --> 00:15:43,109
In the Wisconsin statute,
231
00:15:43,176 --> 00:15:47,480
motions to reconsider can
be filed even years later,
232
00:15:47,547 --> 00:15:49,015
uh, with new evidence.
233
00:15:49,081 --> 00:15:51,517
So, we put all of the new evidence in.
234
00:15:52,151 --> 00:15:55,421
We focused on these porn searches
235
00:15:55,488 --> 00:15:57,423
and on Bobby Dassey.
236
00:15:57,490 --> 00:15:58,791
We attached
237
00:15:58,858 --> 00:16:01,594
the affidavit of his brother, Bryan,
238
00:16:01,661 --> 00:16:06,132
which just flatly contradicted
Bobby's trial testimony.
239
00:16:06,833 --> 00:16:11,204
We focused on all the suspicious
activities with Scott Tadych,
240
00:16:11,270 --> 00:16:14,240
and we had our Brady witness
that placed the car
241
00:16:14,307 --> 00:16:17,143
close to Scott Tadych's residence.
242
00:16:17,944 --> 00:16:23,082
So, we packed all the new evidence
into our motion to reconsider.
243
00:16:25,418 --> 00:16:28,688
Steven Avery's attorneys pushing
once again for a new trial.
244
00:16:28,750 --> 00:16:30,439
In this motion, Avery's attorneys
245
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,190
claim Bobby Dassey's computer
246
00:16:32,191 --> 00:16:35,194
had pictures on it of dead
bodies of young women.
247
00:16:35,261 --> 00:16:38,865
She also claims Halbach and her
vehicle left the Avery property.
248
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:40,679
Zellner alleges Bobby Dassey
249
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,020
and his now-stepfather, Scott Tadych,
250
00:16:43,030 --> 00:16:45,299
gave false testimony to cover up that
251
00:16:45,300 --> 00:16:47,820
they assaulted Halbach on a highway
252
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,343
after she left Avery's property.
253
00:20:49,248 --> 00:20:51,984
We filed the motion to reconsider,
254
00:20:52,051 --> 00:20:56,155
and that resulted in a really revealing,
255
00:20:56,222 --> 00:20:59,592
but extremely hateful,
hostile phone call.
256
00:20:59,992 --> 00:21:01,861
Steven calls to talk to Barb,
257
00:21:01,927 --> 00:21:06,966
and then all of this, you know,
yelling and name-calling starts,
258
00:21:07,032 --> 00:21:11,003
with Scott Tadych, uh, you
know, yelling at Steven
259
00:21:11,070 --> 00:21:16,008
'cause he's so furious that
there's been any scrutiny of him.
260
00:21:16,075 --> 00:21:22,414
And it led to Scott and Barb making
these really amazing admissions.
261
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,379
They admitted that they knew that
262
00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:27,900
Teresa had left the property that day.
263
00:21:29,455 --> 00:21:34,393
That, for some reason, provoked
Barb into talking to Bobby
264
00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:38,330
about exactly what he had said,
265
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:40,439
uh, you know, what he was claiming
266
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,040
about Teresa's visit to the property.
267
00:21:58,751 --> 00:22:02,254
A new version emerged,
according to Barb,
268
00:22:02,321 --> 00:22:05,357
which she posted on
Facebook, from Bobby,
269
00:22:05,420 --> 00:22:07,319
that he actually had never seen
270
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,620
Teresa walk towards Steven's trailer,
271
00:22:10,763 --> 00:22:13,465
which, of course, means he
committed perjury at the trial.
272
00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:18,304
We then took that information
and that phone conversation
273
00:22:18,370 --> 00:22:21,540
and we filed a supplement
on November 1st.
274
00:24:37,009 --> 00:24:38,129
What she's saying
275
00:24:38,177 --> 00:24:41,413
is Steven Avery's postconviction
efforts are over.
276
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:42,881
She wouldn't care what we filed.
277
00:24:42,948 --> 00:24:45,651
I could have filed a
videotaped confession.
278
00:24:45,710 --> 00:24:49,439
She's relying on this 1994 case to say,
279
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,640
"There can be no successive petitions."
280
00:24:51,650 --> 00:24:54,539
Well, there can be, and
that's how most people
281
00:24:54,540 --> 00:24:56,027
ultimately get relief.
282
00:24:56,028 --> 00:24:57,930
It's on successive petitions.
283
00:24:57,997 --> 00:25:01,633
And the Wisconsin statute
provides for filing a motion,
284
00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:04,203
amending it, supplementing it, whatever.
285
00:25:04,570 --> 00:25:07,172
But we've got a very
politicized situation here,
286
00:25:07,239 --> 00:25:09,141
and this is very political,
287
00:25:09,208 --> 00:25:11,844
and I saw what happened
with Brendan Dassey.
288
00:25:11,910 --> 00:25:14,747
I mean, Brendan Dassey's judge
at least had the hearing
289
00:25:14,813 --> 00:25:16,415
and then he ruled against him.
290
00:25:16,482 --> 00:25:20,652
And then the appellate court
did a per curiam opinion.
291
00:25:20,719 --> 00:25:23,188
And then the Supreme
Court didn't take it.
292
00:25:23,589 --> 00:25:28,093
So, I'm not expecting a
warm welcome in Wisconsin.
293
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,029
I'm really not. Um...
294
00:25:30,095 --> 00:25:33,098
But I'm just going to stay in Wisconsin
295
00:25:33,165 --> 00:25:38,037
until I get them to recognize
that this forensic evidence,
296
00:25:38,103 --> 00:25:41,807
which resulted in Steven
Avery being convicted,
297
00:25:41,874 --> 00:25:44,877
has been fabricated.
298
00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:47,579
And so, I'm just gonna
keep banging on the door.
299
00:26:29,121 --> 00:26:30,889
That would be this burner.
300
00:26:43,902 --> 00:26:45,504
Nope, that's not the right one.
301
00:26:46,805 --> 00:26:48,373
Allan, would you come in here?
302
00:26:49,641 --> 00:26:50,976
Your stove is stupid.
303
00:26:54,713 --> 00:26:56,148
Allan, come here!
304
00:27:25,010 --> 00:27:28,013
Hey, can you get up and help me here?
305
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,115
- Huh?
- Come and help me!
306
00:27:30,182 --> 00:27:31,182
I can't.
307
00:27:31,216 --> 00:27:33,552
Well, just get up, then, if you can't.
308
00:27:41,026 --> 00:27:44,229
I think she's worse now
than she was before.
309
00:27:46,665 --> 00:27:49,168
I think she takes too many pills.
310
00:27:53,005 --> 00:27:54,273
That can do it.
311
00:27:58,143 --> 00:27:59,378
What do you want it on?
312
00:27:59,444 --> 00:28:00,913
- Is it hot?
- Huh?
313
00:28:00,979 --> 00:28:02,247
Is the burner hot?
314
00:28:03,715 --> 00:28:05,484
- Put it on?
- Yeah.
315
00:28:07,252 --> 00:28:08,787
Is that the right one for that?
316
00:28:08,854 --> 00:28:09,854
Huh?
317
00:28:10,122 --> 00:28:12,224
Is that the right one for that burner?
318
00:28:14,159 --> 00:28:15,394
Don't act stupid.
319
00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:17,262
I ain't gonna stand here and stir.
320
00:28:21,633 --> 00:28:25,170
It would help if Stevie was home.
321
00:28:28,106 --> 00:28:33,779
I don't think Stevie would want
to live here at home, you know?
322
00:28:34,146 --> 00:28:35,146
But...
323
00:28:36,248 --> 00:28:38,951
I know it would help her. I know that.
324
00:28:44,489 --> 00:28:47,025
I think it would help her tremendously.
325
00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:06,839
Winning cases requires that
326
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,140
the attorney presenting the case
327
00:29:10,260 --> 00:29:14,350
knows the case better than
anyone who's in the courtroom,
328
00:29:14,410 --> 00:29:16,999
anyone that ever picks up, you know,
329
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,660
the documents and looks at the case.
330
00:29:18,690 --> 00:29:23,061
It's incumbent upon the attorney
to know every single detail.
331
00:29:23,595 --> 00:29:26,698
And it's sort of a joke in my office.
332
00:29:26,765 --> 00:29:29,434
I let my clerks do a lot
of analysis and work
333
00:29:29,501 --> 00:29:30,836
and give me memos and all that,
334
00:29:30,902 --> 00:29:32,371
and I trust no one.
335
00:29:32,437 --> 00:29:34,039
And so, I always go back.
336
00:29:36,308 --> 00:29:40,145
I had never looked at the
underlying reports of Eisenberg.
337
00:29:40,212 --> 00:29:43,315
And so, I was going through her notes,
338
00:29:43,382 --> 00:29:49,788
and what caught my eye was the
numbering of the tag numbers.
339
00:29:52,724 --> 00:29:57,396
I, of course, knew 8675
was the quarry pile
340
00:29:57,462 --> 00:29:59,431
with the pelvic bone in it.
341
00:30:02,701 --> 00:30:08,373
But then I saw on the sheet of paper
a different numbering sequence
342
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,309
in the 7400s.
343
00:30:11,943 --> 00:30:15,247
This was different evidence.
These were different bones.
344
00:30:15,314 --> 00:30:17,949
And then I started reading
the content of it
345
00:30:18,684 --> 00:30:22,654
where, in great detail, Leslie
Eisenberg has documented
346
00:30:22,721 --> 00:30:25,424
that there are more human bones.
347
00:30:25,490 --> 00:30:27,759
And then I'm noticing not only that,
348
00:30:27,826 --> 00:30:31,196
but she's documenting that
they have cut marks on them.
349
00:30:35,030 --> 00:30:36,999
There's no indication that these bones
350
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,960
belonged to more than one person.
351
00:30:41,173 --> 00:30:43,241
They're not duplicate bones.
352
00:30:44,170 --> 00:30:46,799
We don't have three different pelvises
353
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,700
or scapulas or femurs. We don't.
354
00:30:53,618 --> 00:30:56,555
And so, then I went back
to my clerks and said,
355
00:30:56,922 --> 00:31:01,493
"Take these numbers, these tag
numbers, and trace them."
356
00:31:05,964 --> 00:31:07,666
One of my clerks came back and said,
357
00:31:07,733 --> 00:31:11,403
"Well, there is further
documentation of the coordinates."
358
00:31:14,272 --> 00:31:17,676
I told them to get the
coordinates, to make a map for me.
359
00:31:17,743 --> 00:31:22,080
I wanted to understand where
those bones were coming from.
360
00:31:29,850 --> 00:31:33,819
There are many, many more human bones
361
00:31:33,820 --> 00:31:37,200
over in the Manitowoc gravel pit.
362
00:31:38,563 --> 00:31:41,867
The two new piles are even further away.
363
00:31:42,134 --> 00:31:44,669
They're closer to Highway Q
364
00:31:45,103 --> 00:31:47,372
than they are to the Avery salvage yard.
365
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,000
And then a little distance from them
366
00:31:51,020 --> 00:31:52,710
is the pile with the pelvic bones,
367
00:31:52,711 --> 00:31:55,881
but lo and behold, there's
another bone in there, too,
368
00:31:55,947 --> 00:31:57,916
that she described as being human.
369
00:31:58,683 --> 00:32:01,920
So, all three piles of bones
370
00:32:01,987 --> 00:32:04,723
are all on the Manitowoc gravel pit.
371
00:32:07,492 --> 00:32:09,327
That discovery
372
00:32:09,394 --> 00:32:12,264
would have changed everything at trial.
373
00:32:12,330 --> 00:32:16,268
If the jury had heard that there
were numerous human bones
374
00:32:16,334 --> 00:32:18,770
over in the Manitowoc gravel pit,
375
00:32:18,837 --> 00:32:21,773
not one possible pelvic bone,
376
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,160
it would have changed everything.
377
00:32:25,277 --> 00:32:27,145
All three quarry piles
378
00:32:27,212 --> 00:32:29,281
have human bones with cut marks.
379
00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:30,360
Yes.
380
00:32:30,370 --> 00:32:34,386
Again, this points away from
what the State's theory was,
381
00:32:34,453 --> 00:32:37,289
because the State's theory is
the body isn't cut at all.
382
00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:38,523
Ah.
383
00:32:38,590 --> 00:32:39,758
- Not at all.
- Not at all?
384
00:32:39,825 --> 00:32:41,865
- Nope.
- Even though it's in the report?
385
00:32:42,027 --> 00:32:44,005
- The anthropology report.
- It's not cut.
386
00:32:44,029 --> 00:32:48,667
I mean, the State's theory was
that the body was burned,
387
00:32:48,733 --> 00:32:52,370
not dismembered, it was burned,
in the Steven Avery burn pit.
388
00:32:52,737 --> 00:32:54,639
So, what does this list mean?
389
00:32:55,106 --> 00:32:57,242
When you find sharp
trauma and then burn,
390
00:32:57,309 --> 00:32:59,878
that's highly suspicious you got
some dismemberment going on
391
00:32:59,945 --> 00:33:02,614
or alteration of the
evidence or the victim,
392
00:33:03,181 --> 00:33:06,151
and that's extremely important
in a case like this.
393
00:33:06,220 --> 00:33:08,719
When people suddenly figure out
394
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:09,887
that there's a dead
body in front of them,
395
00:33:09,888 --> 00:33:12,123
they need to get rid of
them, they're hard to move.
396
00:33:12,190 --> 00:33:14,860
And so, that's when a lot
of my cases get involved,
397
00:33:14,926 --> 00:33:18,363
is just to dismember, to
transport the body easier,
398
00:33:18,430 --> 00:33:20,966
or to fit it someplace it
couldn't fit otherwise.
399
00:33:21,867 --> 00:33:23,668
You can actually see
some cut marks here.
400
00:33:23,735 --> 00:33:24,970
So, there is some tool marks.
401
00:33:25,036 --> 00:33:27,706
And then there's a couple other
features. I put a scale in it.
402
00:33:27,772 --> 00:33:30,775
That black thing is just a piece
of my scale from down below.
403
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,779
OK, so, this one I
recognize. This is from
404
00:33:33,780 --> 00:33:37,720
the Dassey-Janda burn barrel.
405
00:33:37,782 --> 00:33:40,528
- So you think... Where's the... ?
- I'm glad you keep up with it.
406
00:33:40,552 --> 00:33:42,888
Anytime you see a straight
edge manipulation of bone,
407
00:33:42,954 --> 00:33:44,055
it's usually a cut mark.
408
00:33:44,122 --> 00:33:46,525
That looks like a very thin saw,
409
00:33:46,591 --> 00:33:49,528
so I'm thinking the
narrowest possibilities.
410
00:33:49,594 --> 00:33:54,299
So, I tested three or four
hacksaw blades and a meat saw.
411
00:33:54,366 --> 00:33:57,002
So, the hacksaw is pretty
much your narrowest saw,
412
00:33:57,060 --> 00:33:58,860
except for some really unusual
413
00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:01,460
jewelers' saws and
things like that. So...
414
00:34:01,540 --> 00:34:02,939
One of the interesting things
415
00:34:02,940 --> 00:34:05,520
about the dismemberment in this case:
416
00:34:05,644 --> 00:34:09,881
the people that are our Denny
suspects are deer hunters.
417
00:34:09,948 --> 00:34:13,451
And in deer hunting,
when a deer is dressed,
418
00:34:13,518 --> 00:34:15,587
it's... what you're saying...
419
00:34:15,654 --> 00:34:18,023
It's a nice way of saying
you're dismembering,
420
00:34:18,390 --> 00:34:22,761
and the meat's removed and then
you're dismembering the skeleton.
421
00:34:22,827 --> 00:34:26,264
So, hacksaw blades are used,
sharp knives are used,
422
00:34:26,331 --> 00:34:29,668
and a person would have
some awareness of anatomy,
423
00:34:29,730 --> 00:34:33,940
of cutting into a joint and
how to do that effectively.
424
00:34:33,950 --> 00:34:35,819
So, they would be... It's different
425
00:34:35,820 --> 00:34:37,408
than the average person
426
00:34:37,409 --> 00:34:40,645
who might be repulsed by
the idea of dismembering.
427
00:34:40,712 --> 00:34:43,982
It's still hard to imagine anyone
could dismember a human body.
428
00:34:44,049 --> 00:34:47,118
But certainly they have some
of the mechanical skill
429
00:34:47,185 --> 00:34:49,721
that would be necessary for dismembering
430
00:34:49,788 --> 00:34:52,457
that you wouldn't see in other cases.
431
00:34:54,326 --> 00:34:58,163
Dr. Eisenberg documents
the equivalent...
432
00:34:58,229 --> 00:35:04,336
I think it adds up to 1.7
pounds of skeletal remains.
433
00:35:04,402 --> 00:35:05,403
Yeah.
434
00:35:05,470 --> 00:35:07,205
And on a cremation,
435
00:35:07,272 --> 00:35:11,676
what's the weight of a body when
you don't have missing bone?
436
00:35:11,743 --> 00:35:14,746
It's around ten pounds or
so, depending on the person
437
00:35:14,813 --> 00:35:16,982
and the cremation technique
and everything else.
438
00:35:17,048 --> 00:35:18,183
So, we've got...
439
00:35:18,249 --> 00:35:19,985
We're looking at 10 or 20 percent,
440
00:35:20,051 --> 00:35:23,755
and that's nowhere near the real story.
441
00:35:23,822 --> 00:35:26,157
And I think the jury's
getting the same thing.
442
00:35:26,224 --> 00:35:28,860
I don't think they're
getting everything.
443
00:35:29,394 --> 00:35:31,696
Obviously, a lot of the
body is represented,
444
00:35:31,763 --> 00:35:34,032
but a lot of the bones are not there.
445
00:35:34,099 --> 00:35:35,800
And when you burn up a body,
446
00:35:35,867 --> 00:35:36,867
for example, the ribs...
447
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,059
You've got 24 ribs, and they're fragile,
448
00:35:39,060 --> 00:35:41,060
but they're hard to burn up.
449
00:35:41,106 --> 00:35:43,608
There should be rib
fragments everywhere.
450
00:35:43,675 --> 00:35:46,378
And, uh, I just don't see that.
451
00:35:46,444 --> 00:35:48,613
So, I think... And vertebra.
452
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,616
I don't see... The vertebra
bodies are spongy bone.
453
00:35:51,683 --> 00:35:55,186
They survive a fire quite well,
even after they're calcined.
454
00:35:56,087 --> 00:35:58,590
Uh, they stand up pretty well.
455
00:35:58,657 --> 00:36:02,127
We're just missing bones
that hold up in a fire.
456
00:36:02,193 --> 00:36:04,095
I don't see them. I don't see much.
457
00:36:04,162 --> 00:36:07,532
What would be the explanation
for bones being missing?
458
00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:09,601
It wasn't the fire that destroyed them.
459
00:36:09,668 --> 00:36:11,736
Well, I can tell you what
I see over and over.
460
00:36:12,671 --> 00:36:15,106
People think it's easy to
burn a body up, and it's not.
461
00:36:15,173 --> 00:36:16,641
And when they get frustrated,
462
00:36:16,708 --> 00:36:18,576
and you still have the
whole core body left
463
00:36:18,643 --> 00:36:20,245
after you burned off everything else,
464
00:36:20,311 --> 00:36:22,247
you take that and dump
it someplace else.
465
00:36:22,313 --> 00:36:25,283
I've seen that in this
country numerous times.
466
00:36:25,350 --> 00:36:27,419
I've seen it internationally
numerous times.
467
00:36:28,153 --> 00:36:29,393
These bones in the quarry
468
00:36:29,421 --> 00:36:32,223
I'm gonna take about 20
seconds to talk about,
469
00:36:32,290 --> 00:36:34,526
because the best anybody can say
470
00:36:34,592 --> 00:36:35,960
is that they're possible human.
471
00:36:36,027 --> 00:36:38,530
What does "possible human" mean?
472
00:36:39,064 --> 00:36:40,699
Well, it means we don't know what it is.
473
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:41,850
Alright?
474
00:36:41,860 --> 00:36:44,699
The best anthropologists in the world
475
00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:47,720
don't know what these bones are,
476
00:36:48,073 --> 00:36:52,177
even through testing, what's
called mitochondrial DNA testing,
477
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:53,879
whether they're human or not could not,
478
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,820
even by the FBI, be determined.
479
00:36:56,848 --> 00:37:01,753
So, the bones in the quarry are
really not evidence in this case.
480
00:37:01,820 --> 00:37:06,157
And so, Mr. Strang's made a big
deal out of showing you maps
481
00:37:06,224 --> 00:37:10,929
and a little flag and things
like that about possible bones.
482
00:37:10,995 --> 00:37:15,433
Again, speculation, conjecture,
is not part of this case.
483
00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:18,069
Facts are gonna be what
decides this case.
484
00:37:19,137 --> 00:37:21,106
You know that in the defense,
485
00:37:21,172 --> 00:37:25,210
you've got to establish that
she was killed elsewhere.
486
00:37:25,276 --> 00:37:30,915
And here are a pile of human
bones in the gravel pit
487
00:37:30,982 --> 00:37:33,585
where the suspected pelvis is.
488
00:37:33,650 --> 00:37:35,899
And those bones have been documented
489
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:37,721
by the State expert as being human.
490
00:37:37,722 --> 00:37:40,258
Not possibly human, but human.
491
00:37:40,325 --> 00:37:42,694
And then some of them
have cut marks on them.
492
00:37:44,362 --> 00:37:47,999
So, between the defense
attorney and their expert,
493
00:37:48,066 --> 00:37:51,436
that's what you really
call "dropping the ball."
494
00:37:52,036 --> 00:37:53,938
So, the jury's sitting there,
495
00:37:54,005 --> 00:37:57,720
having the State just
minimize the pelvic bone.
496
00:37:57,740 --> 00:38:00,439
I mean, Kratz said that he would spend
497
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,620
no more than 20 seconds on it.
498
00:38:02,747 --> 00:38:06,451
But he would have had to
have spent a lot more time
499
00:38:06,510 --> 00:38:09,339
on numerous human bones over there,
500
00:38:09,340 --> 00:38:11,800
some of which had cut marks on them,
501
00:38:11,923 --> 00:38:15,059
that might've given him
pause past 20 seconds.
502
00:38:15,126 --> 00:38:16,861
But certainly with the jury,
503
00:38:16,928 --> 00:38:20,799
that would've been a huge part
of the argument that was made,
504
00:38:20,865 --> 00:38:23,401
that she wasn't killed
on the Avery property.
505
00:38:23,468 --> 00:38:25,436
She left the Avery property.
506
00:38:25,503 --> 00:38:30,408
She was killed, dismembered, and
burned over in the gravel pit.
507
00:38:32,510 --> 00:38:36,548
Which is right where her cell
phone activity puts her.
508
00:38:36,614 --> 00:38:38,383
All of it fits.
509
00:38:38,449 --> 00:38:39,918
And cases always fit.
510
00:38:39,984 --> 00:38:42,487
When you find out what
the truth is, it all fits.
511
00:38:54,130 --> 00:38:56,459
So, the goal here is to get to the truth
512
00:38:56,460 --> 00:38:59,240
of what happened to Teresa Halbach.
513
00:38:59,337 --> 00:39:04,976
We're not trying to, um,
just stir up trouble.
514
00:39:05,043 --> 00:39:08,313
We're trying to find out what
actually happened to her.
515
00:39:08,379 --> 00:39:10,181
And what the State said happened to her
516
00:39:10,248 --> 00:39:13,585
isn't remotely close to
what happened to her.
517
00:39:16,955 --> 00:39:21,759
Significant evidence has been
discovered over the past 24 hours
518
00:39:21,826 --> 00:39:25,230
at the Avery salvation... salvage yard.
519
00:39:25,296 --> 00:39:27,398
I found out from the media
520
00:39:27,465 --> 00:39:31,402
that there was possibly some remains
found on the Avery property.
521
00:39:31,736 --> 00:39:34,305
There was a press conference
that was on television.
522
00:39:34,372 --> 00:39:37,976
I believe it was November
9th, around 3:00 p.m.,
523
00:39:38,042 --> 00:39:40,178
that that was confirmed.
524
00:39:40,245 --> 00:39:44,649
They feel that the
evidence that they are...
525
00:39:46,150 --> 00:39:50,221
that has been collected and
that they are analyzing
526
00:39:50,288 --> 00:39:54,459
is that of human in nature.
527
00:39:54,525 --> 00:39:57,695
Prior to that, I had no
knowledge or reports
528
00:39:57,762 --> 00:40:00,365
given to me by police or detectives.
529
00:40:00,865 --> 00:40:06,070
I did keep some notes
when things started,
530
00:40:06,137 --> 00:40:09,574
with hearing things in
the media, phone calls.
531
00:40:10,074 --> 00:40:13,177
Um, so, I did keep notes, dates, times.
532
00:40:13,778 --> 00:40:18,116
I called, um, Officer
Wiegert, Detective Wiegert,
533
00:40:18,182 --> 00:40:19,951
that evening of the 9th.
534
00:40:20,618 --> 00:40:25,023
And at that point, he told me
they just overlooked calling me.
535
00:40:25,523 --> 00:40:29,894
Um, and I told him I wanted
to come out to the scene.
536
00:40:29,961 --> 00:40:32,397
They told me the scene was
closed for the night.
537
00:40:33,031 --> 00:40:35,667
And I said, "OK, that's fine.
538
00:40:35,733 --> 00:40:37,802
But why didn't you give
us some kind of report,
539
00:40:37,869 --> 00:40:40,805
some kind of a heads-up
as to what was going on?"
540
00:40:40,872 --> 00:40:45,109
And then he commented to me
at that time, very rudely,
541
00:40:45,176 --> 00:40:48,379
"Well, I don't have to call
or tell you about bones."
542
00:40:48,446 --> 00:40:50,848
And I said, "Oh, yes, you do."
543
00:40:55,353 --> 00:40:58,523
It's the law, it's the statute, 979,
544
00:40:58,589 --> 00:41:02,760
when there is a deceased
body or remains,
545
00:41:02,827 --> 00:41:05,997
that a coroner or medical
examiner are always notified.
546
00:41:06,064 --> 00:41:10,835
They handle the medical
forensic side of the body.
547
00:41:12,537 --> 00:41:16,441
The next day, in the morning, I
was going to go out to the scene,
548
00:41:16,507 --> 00:41:20,078
and I was called to a meeting
by Sheriff Peterson.
549
00:41:20,144 --> 00:41:22,480
I thought, "Oh, good,
I'm finally getting...
550
00:41:22,547 --> 00:41:24,082
I'm finally getting a meeting.
551
00:41:24,148 --> 00:41:28,920
I'm finally going to get an
update on what's going on
552
00:41:28,987 --> 00:41:31,522
and when I will be able to
come out to the scene."
553
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:34,292
But when I got there, at that time,
554
00:41:34,359 --> 00:41:38,463
I was told I will not be
going out to the case,
555
00:41:38,529 --> 00:41:40,531
I will not be going out to the scene,
556
00:41:40,598 --> 00:41:43,668
and if I do, I will be arrested.
557
00:41:44,902 --> 00:41:47,605
And actually, in the State of Wisconsin,
558
00:41:47,672 --> 00:41:50,108
the coroner is the top
law enforcement official
559
00:41:50,174 --> 00:41:52,744
when there is a body or remains.
560
00:41:55,079 --> 00:41:58,383
And the coroner is the one
who can arrest the sheriff.
561
00:41:59,517 --> 00:42:02,253
So, he's threatening to arrest me?
562
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,190
I could tell he meant it, and
when he told me that, I left.
563
00:42:06,257 --> 00:42:07,392
I walked out.
564
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,828
And then, shortly after that,
565
00:42:11,796 --> 00:42:14,165
I got a call from the county exec:
566
00:42:14,999 --> 00:42:18,002
"You need to stay out of
this conflict of interest
567
00:42:18,069 --> 00:42:21,906
because of the Avery case and
the $36-million lawsuit."
568
00:42:22,470 --> 00:42:24,239
And then it was a few minutes later
569
00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:25,942
I got a call from the county attorney:
570
00:42:25,943 --> 00:42:28,339
"Deb, you need to stay out of this case
571
00:42:28,340 --> 00:42:30,147
because of the conflict of interest
572
00:42:30,148 --> 00:42:32,617
and the $36-million lawsuit."
573
00:42:33,251 --> 00:42:34,886
And I questioned them.
574
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:37,219
I said, "What are other officers doing
575
00:42:37,220 --> 00:42:39,890
out there from Manitowoc County
576
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:41,650
when they should not be out there?"
577
00:42:42,093 --> 00:42:45,863
I said, "I've never been involved
in a previous Avery case.
578
00:42:46,330 --> 00:42:49,400
My office is separate from
the Sheriff's Department."
579
00:42:49,967 --> 00:42:52,070
And it just ended by that.
580
00:42:52,136 --> 00:42:57,041
I never did get out to the scene. I
was never given any information.
581
00:42:57,542 --> 00:42:59,710
I was never allowed to do my job.
582
00:43:04,348 --> 00:43:08,086
I was supposed to be an
advocate for Teresa.
583
00:43:08,586 --> 00:43:11,055
That was my goal.
584
00:43:11,122 --> 00:43:13,858
And when you can't do that...
585
00:43:17,395 --> 00:43:20,832
you just have this bad
feeling that you failed,
586
00:43:21,365 --> 00:43:22,733
you failed that person.
587
00:43:28,506 --> 00:43:30,546
To my knowledge, there
was no coroner there.
588
00:43:30,575 --> 00:43:33,811
There was no forensic
anthropologist or medical examiner.
589
00:43:35,613 --> 00:43:38,116
The defense calls Ms. Debra Kakatsch.
590
00:43:41,419 --> 00:43:44,655
When I walked into the
courtroom and took the stand,
591
00:43:45,490 --> 00:43:49,427
Attorney Kratz, he just looked
at me, just staring me down.
592
00:43:50,361 --> 00:43:52,463
That told me the whole story.
593
00:43:53,364 --> 00:43:57,735
Did you, um, in November of 2005,
594
00:43:57,802 --> 00:44:02,073
come to learn of some
suspected human bones
595
00:44:02,140 --> 00:44:05,710
found on or near the Avery
property in Manitowoc County?
596
00:44:05,776 --> 00:44:08,146
- Yes, I did.
- How did you learn about that?
597
00:44:08,212 --> 00:44:09,580
From television.
598
00:44:09,947 --> 00:44:13,618
What did you do after
you saw on television
599
00:44:13,684 --> 00:44:18,189
something about the discovery
of possible human remains?
600
00:44:19,557 --> 00:44:21,826
Well, I got a few phone calls,
601
00:44:21,890 --> 00:44:25,379
and particularly from my deputies,
602
00:44:25,380 --> 00:44:28,240
as to what the plan of action would be.
603
00:44:29,066 --> 00:44:31,502
Your Honor. I'm sorry, Your Honor.
604
00:44:33,237 --> 00:44:36,407
I think we need to be heard
outside the presence of the jury.
605
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:37,779
At this time, the court
606
00:44:37,780 --> 00:44:39,880
will excuse the jurors
for a few minutes.
607
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,149
I would ask, what is
the relevancy of this?
608
00:44:45,216 --> 00:44:47,718
The Manitowoc County Corporation Counsel
609
00:44:47,780 --> 00:44:50,359
wanted to remove all Manitowoc County
610
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,680
officials from this investigation.
611
00:44:52,690 --> 00:44:54,959
And to come in now
612
00:44:55,026 --> 00:44:59,630
because, perhaps, some disgruntled
Manitowoc County employee
613
00:45:00,665 --> 00:45:01,899
didn't like that decision.
614
00:45:01,966 --> 00:45:04,435
I don't see the relevancy
at all of this.
615
00:45:04,769 --> 00:45:08,039
Neither Ms. Kakatsch, nor
the Office of Coroner,
616
00:45:08,105 --> 00:45:10,641
nor anyone in the coroner's office,
617
00:45:10,708 --> 00:45:15,313
had any prior involvement in
Steven Avery's civil lawsuit.
618
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,150
Um, hadn't been deposed,
hadn't been interviewed,
619
00:45:19,217 --> 00:45:23,854
had no statutory responsibilities
for the 1985 crime.
620
00:45:23,921 --> 00:45:29,360
And, um, yet her office
was walled off entirely
621
00:45:29,427 --> 00:45:31,696
from performing its lawful duties
622
00:45:31,762 --> 00:45:34,398
in connection with the
discovery of human remains.
623
00:45:35,333 --> 00:45:39,437
I don't see how anything
the coroner would've done,
624
00:45:40,471 --> 00:45:42,807
um, would've somehow contributed
625
00:45:42,873 --> 00:45:47,745
to a less biased investigation
in this matter.
626
00:45:48,045 --> 00:45:50,615
The court is not going to allow it.
627
00:45:52,750 --> 00:45:55,853
I wasn't up there long
on the stand at all.
628
00:46:06,163 --> 00:46:07,665
I loved my job.
629
00:46:11,469 --> 00:46:13,971
But I couldn't do it anymore.
630
00:46:15,773 --> 00:46:21,178
When was gonna be the next
threat of arrest, intimidation?
631
00:46:21,245 --> 00:46:24,148
I didn't feel safe going
out on calls at night.
632
00:46:27,451 --> 00:46:28,753
So I had to end it.
633
00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:27,380
This morning,
634
00:47:27,390 --> 00:47:30,614
the court ruling that could have
led to freedom for Brendan Dassey.
635
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,680
Instead, a federal
appeals court narrowly
636
00:47:32,700 --> 00:47:34,450
decided to uphold his conviction,
637
00:47:34,452 --> 00:47:35,920
keeping him in prison.
638
00:47:35,986 --> 00:47:38,556
Brendan Dassey won two court
battles before this new ruling,
639
00:47:38,622 --> 00:47:41,392
which could keep him in prison
for the rest of his life.
640
00:47:41,459 --> 00:47:44,962
That federal appeals court finding
he was not intimidated or coerced
641
00:47:45,029 --> 00:47:46,964
into confessing to rape and murder.
642
00:47:58,609 --> 00:48:02,213
It's clear he's been very
resistant up to that point.
643
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:03,848
Very reluctant.
644
00:48:03,914 --> 00:48:07,852
He's telling a contradictory story
that doesn't make any sense,
645
00:48:07,918 --> 00:48:09,453
and they're calling him on it.
646
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,657
It comes out very slowly and
painfully, but he volunteers it.
647
00:48:45,156 --> 00:48:49,126
The investigators made my skin
crawl watching this video,
648
00:48:49,193 --> 00:48:52,897
this lulling behavior
that they conveyed,
649
00:48:52,963 --> 00:48:56,467
which was so dishonest, so dishonest.
650
00:49:31,669 --> 00:49:35,473
Now imagine it is not an average person,
651
00:49:35,539 --> 00:49:40,044
but a 16-year-old with
a very, very low IQ
652
00:49:40,110 --> 00:49:43,481
who is extremely suggestible.
653
00:50:39,870 --> 00:50:42,339
It's been overturned two times already.
654
00:50:42,940 --> 00:50:45,476
You know, if you overturn it one time,
655
00:50:45,843 --> 00:50:50,214
and then the other two,
three judges overturns it,
656
00:50:50,810 --> 00:50:52,939
you know, if it was anybody else,
657
00:50:52,940 --> 00:50:55,260
he would've been out, walking away.
658
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,390
With this case, it's different.
659
00:51:00,257 --> 00:51:01,825
You know, you ain't walking out.
660
00:51:02,359 --> 00:51:04,628
Why do you think it's so difficult?
661
00:51:05,763 --> 00:51:07,932
Well, because they don't
want to be wrong,
662
00:51:07,998 --> 00:51:11,368
and it's a high profile case.
663
00:51:12,036 --> 00:51:16,607
It's gonna be more harder for
the State to let it go...
664
00:51:17,374 --> 00:51:18,809
because they are wrong.
665
00:51:20,010 --> 00:51:23,681
I still believe that
it's going to happen.
666
00:51:23,747 --> 00:51:26,450
'Cause they can't stop the
development of science,
667
00:51:26,517 --> 00:51:29,954
and they can't stop the
information that we have,
668
00:51:30,321 --> 00:51:32,156
that it will fall apart on that.
669
00:51:32,222 --> 00:51:36,026
That should make Brendan's
case fall apart, too.
670
00:51:36,093 --> 00:51:37,962
Well, yeah, it's gotta collapse.
671
00:51:38,028 --> 00:51:42,032
When you're innocent, it's gonna
break down sooner or later.
672
00:51:42,090 --> 00:51:43,779
That's what I think, too.
673
00:51:43,780 --> 00:51:45,060
I ain't gonna give up.
674
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:46,470
No, you can't.
675
00:51:47,137 --> 00:51:49,173
I was just reading a book
about postconvictions,
676
00:51:49,230 --> 00:51:51,599
and they said the biggest problem was
677
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,600
that people eventually just stop.
678
00:51:53,711 --> 00:51:56,013
You know, they just stop filing stuff.
679
00:51:56,780 --> 00:51:58,482
Yeah. Well, they know...
680
00:51:58,549 --> 00:52:01,452
- They know me by now. I don't stop.
- Yeah.
681
00:52:01,518 --> 00:52:03,129
No, I think...
682
00:52:03,150 --> 00:52:05,280
I think... I think they
might've gotten that.
683
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,120
You know?
684
00:52:24,340 --> 00:52:26,179
Since we learned that we lost
685
00:52:26,180 --> 00:52:28,380
before the en banc 7th Circuit,
686
00:52:28,679 --> 00:52:30,881
we have begun taking steps
687
00:52:30,948 --> 00:52:34,051
to get Brendan's case before
the US Supreme Court.
688
00:52:43,327 --> 00:52:46,830
The United States Supreme Court
gets thousands of requests
689
00:52:46,897 --> 00:52:48,866
to take cases each year.
690
00:52:49,233 --> 00:52:51,168
And out of those thousands,
691
00:52:51,235 --> 00:52:52,903
they take about 80 cases.
692
00:52:55,839 --> 00:52:57,908
This case has never been about the odds,
693
00:52:57,975 --> 00:53:00,744
it's about overcoming the odds.
694
00:53:01,712 --> 00:53:05,082
So, to increase the chances that
the court will take the case,
695
00:53:05,149 --> 00:53:09,953
we decided we would seek out
the best lawyers we could find
696
00:53:10,020 --> 00:53:12,356
to help present the case
to the Supreme Court.
697
00:53:12,423 --> 00:53:15,125
Seth Waxman was the US Solicitor General
698
00:53:15,192 --> 00:53:16,560
under President Clinton,
699
00:53:16,620 --> 00:53:20,380
in charge of that administration's
cases before the Supreme Court.
700
00:53:20,420 --> 00:53:22,559
He's argued 80 cases before that court.
701
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,500
He knows what they need to hear.
702
00:53:24,501 --> 00:53:26,070
A day does not go by
703
00:53:26,136 --> 00:53:29,940
when I don't hear Janet Reno's
voice in my head saying,
704
00:53:30,307 --> 00:53:32,242
"You're gonna be
criticized no matter what,
705
00:53:32,309 --> 00:53:34,812
so why don't we just
do the right thing?"
706
00:53:34,878 --> 00:53:37,715
He is the person who had
the juvenile death penalty
707
00:53:37,781 --> 00:53:39,717
declared unconstitutional.
708
00:53:39,783 --> 00:53:42,119
There are not that many lawyers
709
00:53:42,186 --> 00:53:45,322
who appear with any regularity
before the Supreme Court.
710
00:53:45,389 --> 00:53:46,924
Seth Waxman is one.
711
00:53:50,060 --> 00:53:55,132
The Supreme Court views its
most important function
712
00:53:56,066 --> 00:53:58,135
as ensuring...
713
00:53:59,369 --> 00:54:03,440
the uniform and harmonious
application of federal law
714
00:54:03,507 --> 00:54:05,142
throughout the United States.
715
00:54:06,977 --> 00:54:10,013
If you look at cases involving juveniles
716
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,750
or persons with limitations
717
00:54:12,816 --> 00:54:18,355
and how the voluntariness of their
confession is being evaluated,
718
00:54:18,422 --> 00:54:25,295
you can see an astonishing
degree of inconsistency
719
00:54:25,596 --> 00:54:26,964
in how the special...
720
00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:30,934
how or whether the special care
standard is being applied.
721
00:54:33,003 --> 00:54:36,073
Back in 1948, the Supreme Court said
722
00:54:36,140 --> 00:54:39,399
courts must analyze confessions
723
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,820
from juveniles and from
the mentally impaired
724
00:54:41,845 --> 00:54:44,915
with special care, with
the greatest care.
725
00:54:45,682 --> 00:54:46,984
Since that decision,
726
00:54:47,050 --> 00:54:50,521
there has been silence, for the
most part, from the court,
727
00:54:50,587 --> 00:54:55,492
and it's left, um, a lot of
confusion in the state courts.
728
00:54:55,826 --> 00:54:58,996
It's not confusion because
the law is unclear.
729
00:54:59,329 --> 00:55:04,668
It's confusion because the courts
are either ignoring or misapplying
730
00:55:05,002 --> 00:55:07,604
what is clear Supreme Court precedent.
731
00:55:11,942 --> 00:55:15,179
It's been 40 years since the
United States Supreme Court
732
00:55:15,245 --> 00:55:18,782
even looked at the question
of juvenile voluntariness.
733
00:55:20,217 --> 00:55:23,020
Since 1979, so much has happened.
734
00:55:23,380 --> 00:55:24,899
There's been an explosion of knowledge
735
00:55:24,900 --> 00:55:26,900
about the problem of false confessions,
736
00:55:26,924 --> 00:55:30,360
a realization from social
science and psychologists,
737
00:55:30,427 --> 00:55:33,997
and lawyers who have proven their
clients innocent through DNA,
738
00:55:34,331 --> 00:55:36,934
that children are more
likely to falsely confess
739
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:38,769
to crimes they didn't commit,
740
00:55:38,830 --> 00:55:41,299
and that the courts are not doing enough
741
00:55:41,300 --> 00:55:43,900
to protect kids when that happens.
742
00:55:46,410 --> 00:55:48,645
It's really very, very important
743
00:55:49,279 --> 00:55:51,281
that the court take this case
744
00:55:51,348 --> 00:55:56,086
and model for state and federal courts
745
00:55:56,720 --> 00:56:01,859
how one evaluates a
confession by a juvenile,
746
00:56:01,925 --> 00:56:07,064
and a juvenile with rather
significant intellectual
747
00:56:07,130 --> 00:56:09,433
and social deficits.
748
00:56:12,336 --> 00:56:15,372
I think the entire
country has an interest
749
00:56:15,439 --> 00:56:18,642
in having the Supreme
Court hear this case.
750
00:56:18,709 --> 00:56:20,878
I mean, every one of us...
751
00:56:21,912 --> 00:56:26,083
wants a system of criminal justice
752
00:56:26,149 --> 00:56:31,188
that ferrets out the
perpetrators of crime
753
00:56:31,255 --> 00:56:34,224
and punishes them appropriately,
754
00:56:34,291 --> 00:56:39,596
but that also respects
the individual liberties
755
00:56:39,663 --> 00:56:43,166
on which our country was founded.
756
00:56:48,405 --> 00:56:52,042
We need only four of the nine justices
757
00:56:52,109 --> 00:56:54,711
to agree to take the case.
758
00:57:11,261 --> 00:57:13,397
After a bunch of back and forth,
759
00:57:13,463 --> 00:57:17,334
all of the sudden, on
April 17th of 2018,
760
00:57:17,401 --> 00:57:21,605
Mr. Fallon has mailed to my office,
in an original evidence package,
761
00:57:21,672 --> 00:57:24,675
with evidence tape on it, the CD.
762
00:57:25,175 --> 00:57:30,280
So, he disclosed it to me as if
it were an original disclosure.
763
00:57:40,924 --> 00:57:43,560
Brady requires a timely disclosure.
764
00:57:43,994 --> 00:57:47,831
So, if you look at the fact
that the Velie report,
765
00:57:47,898 --> 00:57:50,033
the forensic analysis of the computer,
766
00:57:50,100 --> 00:57:54,471
was completed on May 10th of 2006,
767
00:57:54,538 --> 00:57:57,174
the Fassbender report
was not turned over
768
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,309
even mentioning the CD
769
00:57:59,376 --> 00:58:02,746
until December of 2006.
770
00:58:03,610 --> 00:58:05,699
And the Fassbender report says,
771
00:58:05,700 --> 00:58:08,400
"The disc received from Detective Velie,
772
00:58:08,418 --> 00:58:13,156
as well as the hardcopy pages of
instant message conversations,
773
00:58:13,223 --> 00:58:16,693
were maintained in
Fassbender's possession."
774
00:58:17,928 --> 00:58:23,467
So, 2,400 pages of evidence
is kept by Fassbender
775
00:58:23,533 --> 00:58:25,502
and not given to the defense.
776
00:58:27,270 --> 00:58:29,859
It was never, ever given to
777
00:58:29,860 --> 00:58:32,020
the trial team, the appellate team.
778
00:58:32,042 --> 00:58:35,445
It was not disclosed until
it was given to me.
779
00:58:39,180 --> 00:58:43,039
The Velie CD was withheld because
780
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,840
it would have destroyed the credibility
781
00:58:45,856 --> 00:58:47,791
of the State's star witness.
782
00:58:50,293 --> 00:58:52,662
Bobby Dassey is an eyewitness,
783
00:58:52,996 --> 00:58:56,033
an eyewitness without any bias,
784
00:58:56,099 --> 00:59:00,003
is an individual that deserves
to be given a lot of credit,
785
00:59:00,070 --> 00:59:02,806
because sometime between 2:30 and 2:45,
786
00:59:02,873 --> 00:59:06,009
he sees Teresa Halbach
taking photographs.
787
00:59:06,476 --> 00:59:09,179
Mr. Dassey is looking out this window,
788
00:59:09,613 --> 00:59:10,714
a clear view,
789
00:59:10,781 --> 00:59:15,552
sees the pictures being
taken of the SUV.
790
00:59:15,619 --> 00:59:20,323
A clear pathway, and as she
walks towards Mr. Avery's,
791
00:59:20,390 --> 00:59:23,260
that's the last Ms. Halbach is seen.
792
00:59:23,326 --> 00:59:26,430
That's the last she's seen alive. OK?
793
00:59:26,496 --> 00:59:29,433
So, that's the, um, timeline.
794
00:59:29,499 --> 00:59:33,170
That's the, uh, pathway, if you will,
795
00:59:33,236 --> 00:59:36,440
towards what happens to Ms. Halbach.
796
00:59:37,107 --> 00:59:39,743
Mr. Kratz, in the opening
and the closing,
797
00:59:39,810 --> 00:59:43,046
talked about how credible
Bobby Dassey was,
798
00:59:43,113 --> 00:59:46,016
there would be no reason for him to lie,
799
00:59:46,750 --> 00:59:49,086
that the jury should
believe Bobby Dassey
800
00:59:49,150 --> 00:59:51,779
because he's just this
independent witness
801
00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:53,780
that's got no motive to lie.
802
00:59:54,891 --> 00:59:59,663
And so, it was imperative
that that CD be withheld,
803
00:59:59,729 --> 01:00:02,833
because that CD showed
804
01:00:02,899 --> 01:00:07,304
the kind of demented,
twisted, sadistic mind
805
01:00:07,370 --> 01:00:10,207
of somebody capable of
committing a murder.
806
01:00:11,174 --> 01:00:13,710
So, from their opening statement,
807
01:00:13,777 --> 01:00:16,146
the defense would've told the jury
808
01:00:16,213 --> 01:00:19,549
that they were going to
hear from a State witness
809
01:00:19,616 --> 01:00:25,055
that most likely was the person
who had killed Teresa Halbach,
810
01:00:25,122 --> 01:00:28,825
and they would've talked about
his opportunity, motive,
811
01:00:28,892 --> 01:00:32,028
and that he was going
to be lying to them.
812
01:00:32,095 --> 01:00:35,332
And then, when he got on the stand,
they would've confronted him,
813
01:00:35,398 --> 01:00:37,934
and the jury would've seen these images.
814
01:00:39,230 --> 01:00:41,799
I mean, do we really
think a jury would've
815
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:45,800
listened to Bobby Dassey
describe anything
816
01:00:45,809 --> 01:00:50,046
if they had seen what was on the
computer and what he was doing,
817
01:00:50,113 --> 01:00:54,317
that he's searching for these
images of torturing young women,
818
01:00:54,384 --> 01:00:56,520
many of whom look like Teresa Halbach?
819
01:00:56,580 --> 01:00:58,639
He's got pictures of women blindfolded,
820
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:02,080
gagged, tied up, dismembered.
821
01:01:04,494 --> 01:01:06,963
And so, he would've been
attacked with all of that.
822
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:10,634
He would've been totally
discredited in his testimony
823
01:01:10,700 --> 01:01:12,903
that Teresa never left the property.
824
01:01:12,969 --> 01:01:17,007
I can guarantee you, Steven Avery
would never have been convicted
825
01:01:17,073 --> 01:01:19,609
if that evidence had come
in that's on the CD.
826
01:01:19,676 --> 01:01:21,411
He would not have been convicted.
827
01:01:21,478 --> 01:01:22,746
... on count one
828
01:01:22,812 --> 01:01:27,317
is signed by the foreperson
of the jury, dated today.
829
01:01:27,651 --> 01:01:31,688
The other verdicts are also signed
by the foreperson of the jury.
830
01:01:31,980 --> 01:01:34,539
The reason this ranks so highly
831
01:01:34,540 --> 01:01:36,379
on the scale of Brady violations
832
01:01:36,380 --> 01:01:39,759
is we will be able to show that this was
833
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:43,340
deceptively withheld by the State.
834
01:01:48,338 --> 01:01:50,974
Kratz creates an index of discovery
835
01:01:51,041 --> 01:01:55,011
which doesn't match anyone else's
index of what's been turned over.
836
01:01:55,078 --> 01:01:58,949
But right at the end of it,
he puts an entry that says,
837
01:01:59,349 --> 01:02:03,653
"Brendan Dassey's computer. Seven CDs."
838
01:02:04,521 --> 01:02:06,756
Well, bunch of things wrong with that.
839
01:02:06,823 --> 01:02:11,628
It's not Brendan Dassey's computer,
and there were never seven CDs.
840
01:02:11,695 --> 01:02:14,631
There were seven DVDs and a CD,
841
01:02:14,698 --> 01:02:17,767
and the CD is what has
the analysis on it.
842
01:02:17,834 --> 01:02:20,804
The CD is what you can
just pop in a computer
843
01:02:20,870 --> 01:02:22,439
and pull up and look at,
844
01:02:22,505 --> 01:02:25,342
and you don't have to
have the in-case program,
845
01:02:25,408 --> 01:02:26,943
like the DVDs require.
846
01:02:27,310 --> 01:02:29,145
But I believe what he was doing is,
847
01:02:29,212 --> 01:02:33,850
he was trying to hide the fact
that Fassbender still had the CD.
848
01:02:33,917 --> 01:02:35,819
It had never been turned over.
849
01:02:35,885 --> 01:02:38,788
So, he's thinking that Buting and
Strang and their paralegals,
850
01:02:38,855 --> 01:02:41,224
and you're in this big flurry,
getting ready for trial,
851
01:02:41,291 --> 01:02:43,126
you're gonna look at
that entry and think,
852
01:02:43,193 --> 01:02:44,861
"Oh, well, we must have that.
853
01:02:44,928 --> 01:02:47,731
By the way, it has to do
with Brendan's computer.
854
01:02:47,790 --> 01:02:49,519
We're not gonna get involved in looking
855
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:50,833
at stuff on Brendan's computer.
856
01:02:50,834 --> 01:02:54,271
We've got to focus on the
rest of the evidence
857
01:02:54,337 --> 01:02:58,341
that pertains to Steven and the case."
858
01:02:58,408 --> 01:03:02,279
And so, it's just so slippery,
the way that he did that.
859
01:03:04,447 --> 01:03:08,385
So, that's the first
thing that Kratz does.
860
01:03:09,452 --> 01:03:12,622
And then this stipulation proposal
861
01:03:12,689 --> 01:03:17,594
was sent by Mr. Kratz on
January 25th of 2007.
862
01:03:17,661 --> 01:03:22,165
The trial started in the
early part of February 2007,
863
01:03:22,232 --> 01:03:25,702
so it couldn't be any
closer to the trial date.
864
01:03:26,703 --> 01:03:31,474
So, stipulations are pretrial
agreements between each side
865
01:03:31,541 --> 01:03:34,678
about evidence that you both agree on,
866
01:03:34,744 --> 01:03:37,614
and so you don't need to bring
witnesses in to testify.
867
01:03:37,681 --> 01:03:39,549
It's a way to streamline the trial.
868
01:03:40,650 --> 01:03:44,454
So, in paragraph R, Mr. Kratz says,
869
01:03:44,888 --> 01:03:50,927
"Computer analysis of Steve, Teresa,
and Brendan's computer... "
870
01:03:51,261 --> 01:03:54,264
Of course, this is not
Brendan's computer.
871
01:03:54,331 --> 01:03:58,101
"Mike Velie of the Grand
Chute Police Department
872
01:03:58,168 --> 01:04:01,705
analyzed the hard drives of these three
873
01:04:01,771 --> 01:04:06,976
and found nothing much
of evidentiary value."
874
01:04:08,211 --> 01:04:12,816
"This stip eliminates Officer
Velie as a witness."
875
01:04:14,984 --> 01:04:18,154
"Nothing much of evidentiary value"?
876
01:04:18,988 --> 01:04:21,691
Yeah, for the State,
there's nothing much,
877
01:04:21,758 --> 01:04:25,328
but there's something huge for the
defense that he's kept from them.
878
01:04:25,762 --> 01:04:27,997
Of course, where the deception is,
879
01:04:28,064 --> 01:04:30,834
is in labeling it as Brendan's computer.
880
01:04:31,167 --> 01:04:33,036
It's not Brendan's computer.
881
01:04:33,100 --> 01:04:35,699
Brendan's the person using it,
882
01:04:35,700 --> 01:04:38,420
you know, less than
anyone in the family.
883
01:04:38,508 --> 01:04:41,111
But Kratz knew... It's very clever.
884
01:04:41,177 --> 01:04:42,679
He knew if he told them,
885
01:04:42,746 --> 01:04:46,049
"Oh, Brendan's computer.
We did a forensic analysis.
886
01:04:46,116 --> 01:04:47,817
And, oh, you guys are really lucky.
887
01:04:47,884 --> 01:04:50,353
There's nothing on there
of evidentiary value."
888
01:04:50,420 --> 01:04:52,689
You're not going to say, "Wait a minute.
889
01:04:52,756 --> 01:04:55,959
You know, we want to
dive deeper into this
890
01:04:56,025 --> 01:04:58,728
and really start looking
at what's been disclosed."
891
01:04:58,795 --> 01:05:01,431
So, it was just a complete...
892
01:05:01,498 --> 01:05:03,433
They were completely duped.
893
01:05:06,803 --> 01:05:07,803
It's...
894
01:05:08,104 --> 01:05:11,708
This isn't just an academic discussion.
895
01:05:11,775 --> 01:05:17,046
This is about depriving
someone of their life.
896
01:05:17,113 --> 01:05:20,583
Because being locked up,
life without parole,
897
01:05:20,650 --> 01:05:24,554
um, in a little cage for
the rest of your life,
898
01:05:24,621 --> 01:05:26,589
it's just about as bad as it gets.
899
01:05:26,656 --> 01:05:29,559
And when you find out that you're there
900
01:05:29,626 --> 01:05:35,098
because the other side tricked
and lied to your attorneys,
901
01:05:35,165 --> 01:05:38,001
um, it doesn't get much worse than that.
902
01:05:38,067 --> 01:05:41,304
It's hardly the prosecutors
seeking justice.
903
01:05:58,788 --> 01:06:01,524
You can't tell one lie without
it getting uncovered.
904
01:06:01,858 --> 01:06:06,796
And their one lie snowballed into
a whole bunch of other stuff,
905
01:06:06,860 --> 01:06:08,819
and I just don't think the county knows
906
01:06:08,820 --> 01:06:10,599
how to get out from under that.
907
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:12,068
Good things are coming.
908
01:06:14,304 --> 01:06:17,240
The future is gonna hold good
things for Steve and Brendan.
909
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:18,939
They're gonna get out,
they're gonna live
910
01:06:18,940 --> 01:06:20,940
happy, healthy lives and...
911
01:06:22,212 --> 01:06:23,847
and put this all behind them.
912
01:06:24,347 --> 01:06:28,117
That's what they need. The
whole family needs that.
913
01:06:29,486 --> 01:06:32,856
Free Steven Avery! Free Brendan Dassey!
914
01:06:33,223 --> 01:06:36,926
Free Steven Avery! Free Brendan Dassey!
915
01:06:39,128 --> 01:06:41,464
- That was awesome.
- Justice!
916
01:06:42,131 --> 01:06:43,399
Free Steven!
917
01:06:45,602 --> 01:06:47,604
Free Steven...
918
01:06:52,408 --> 01:06:55,945
The implications of this
case has a much wider reach
919
01:06:56,012 --> 01:06:57,347
than just Wisconsin,
920
01:06:57,413 --> 01:06:59,482
and certainly wider than Manitowoc.
921
01:06:59,549 --> 01:07:03,319
So, to me, it's about the bigger
issue of how did this happen,
922
01:07:03,386 --> 01:07:05,889
and how can we prevent it from
occurring again in the future?
923
01:07:07,056 --> 01:07:08,157
Guilty!
924
01:07:08,858 --> 01:07:09,893
Innocent!
925
01:07:10,727 --> 01:07:12,695
I got two bullets for them!
926
01:07:14,931 --> 01:07:17,100
For Justice!
927
01:07:19,669 --> 01:07:22,705
- Free Brendan!
- Free Brendan! Free Steven!
928
01:07:22,772 --> 01:07:26,509
Until all is changed and they start
holding prosecutors accountable
929
01:07:26,576 --> 01:07:29,370
for their actions, this
will continue to happen,
930
01:07:29,445 --> 01:07:31,781
to not only Steven,
but to more children.
931
01:07:31,848 --> 01:07:33,349
How's the boy?
932
01:07:33,416 --> 01:07:35,552
- He's hanging in there.
- Yeah.
933
01:07:36,319 --> 01:07:38,888
- It would be better if he was here.
- Yes, it would be.
934
01:07:38,955 --> 01:07:41,133
He's gonna be home soon.
I have a good feeling...
935
01:07:41,157 --> 01:07:42,959
- He is gonna be.
- I sure hope so.
936
01:07:43,026 --> 01:07:45,795
Yeah, next week, the Supreme
Court is gonna be reviewing
937
01:07:45,862 --> 01:07:48,598
whether or not they're gonna
take Brendan Dassey's case.
938
01:07:48,965 --> 01:07:52,769
Um, and, man, I really
hope they do, you know?
939
01:07:52,770 --> 01:07:54,619
And I hope they really take their time
940
01:07:54,620 --> 01:07:56,620
and look through the evidence and...
941
01:07:56,773 --> 01:07:58,241
and see the truth.
942
01:08:02,679 --> 01:08:05,381
Free Brendan! Free Steven!
943
01:08:06,649 --> 01:08:08,885
I want my son home and I
want my brother home.
944
01:08:08,952 --> 01:08:11,020
Free Steven Avery! Free Brendan Dassey!
945
01:08:12,755 --> 01:08:15,291
My family did not do anything.
946
01:08:16,192 --> 01:08:19,295
Meaning Scott, my son Bobby,
947
01:08:19,963 --> 01:08:22,365
Brendan, Steven.
948
01:08:22,432 --> 01:08:24,167
I know they didn't do nothing.
949
01:08:24,300 --> 01:08:25,568
They're all innocent.
950
01:08:26,336 --> 01:08:28,171
My whole family's innocent.
951
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:31,574
So, I think they ought
to let them out...
952
01:08:32,508 --> 01:08:34,611
and let us go on with our lives.
953
01:09:06,442 --> 01:09:09,312
Today, you're right, we had a
couple more non-decisions.
954
01:09:09,379 --> 01:09:11,614
The court deciding not
to take up two disputes,
955
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:13,079
that there had been some real thinking
956
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:14,326
that the court might wade into...
957
01:09:14,350 --> 01:09:15,699
The Supreme Court said it's not
958
01:09:15,700 --> 01:09:17,700
going to take the case of a young man.
959
01:09:17,787 --> 01:09:20,390
He was convicted in a brutal murder,
960
01:09:20,456 --> 01:09:23,760
and the only evidence against
him was his own confession.
961
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:27,339
Today's Supreme Court decision
962
01:09:27,340 --> 01:09:29,097
not to hear Dassey's appeal
963
01:09:29,098 --> 01:09:31,934
means that lower court
ruling will stand,
964
01:09:32,001 --> 01:09:34,203
as does his sentence of life in prison.
965
01:09:36,939 --> 01:09:39,776
Justices did not say why
they won't take the case.
966
01:09:39,842 --> 01:09:42,845
It was Dassey's last option for appeal.
967
01:09:45,515 --> 01:09:47,393
Wisconsin's Attorney General saying
968
01:09:47,410 --> 01:09:49,499
he hopes Teresa Halbach's family
969
01:09:49,500 --> 01:09:51,900
can now find some comfort and closure
970
01:09:51,921 --> 01:09:53,523
with the court's decision.
971
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:39,635
Dear people in the world.
972
01:10:40,570 --> 01:10:42,505
Thank you for listening to me.
973
01:10:43,940 --> 01:10:49,212
It means a lot to know there are
many people who believe in me.
974
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:54,784
I am innocent of the rape and
murder of Teresa Halbach.
975
01:10:57,120 --> 01:10:58,988
My confession is false.
976
01:10:59,489 --> 01:11:00,823
It always has been.
977
01:11:04,293 --> 01:11:07,797
I thought I finally
had a chance at life.
978
01:11:08,898 --> 01:11:11,367
I am going to keep fighting to go home.
979
01:11:12,902 --> 01:11:17,874
I still hope that someday the
people in charge would realize
980
01:11:17,940 --> 01:11:19,709
they made a mistake.
981
01:11:21,277 --> 01:11:26,883
Until then, I am staying strong for
myself, my mom, and my friends.
982
01:11:28,217 --> 01:11:30,686
Thank you for helping me stay strong.
983
01:11:31,888 --> 01:11:33,956
Sincerely, Brendan Dassey.
984
01:11:56,445 --> 01:11:57,747
This story...
985
01:11:59,348 --> 01:12:02,185
you know, the story of
Steven Avery's life,
986
01:12:03,586 --> 01:12:05,621
whether I win in court
987
01:12:06,022 --> 01:12:10,960
or just making known
what happened to him
988
01:12:11,294 --> 01:12:12,995
if he doesn't survive,
989
01:12:13,062 --> 01:12:16,532
um, is something that I'm
completely committed to doing.
990
01:12:16,599 --> 01:12:22,238
Because it is such, um, a tragic story.
991
01:12:25,970 --> 01:12:27,979
So, it's a difficult thing to know that
992
01:12:27,980 --> 01:12:31,220
we're so far down the road on it
993
01:12:31,247 --> 01:12:34,650
and that everything's
mobilized against us.
994
01:12:35,618 --> 01:12:38,254
But it can be done.
995
01:12:38,321 --> 01:12:42,124
It still can be done because
there's so much evidence.
996
01:12:42,191 --> 01:12:45,528
It's not just the jury that didn't
hear the evidence in this case.
997
01:12:45,595 --> 01:12:47,096
It's the judges.
998
01:12:47,890 --> 01:12:51,059
They have yet to be given the true story
999
01:12:51,060 --> 01:12:53,339
of what happened to Teresa Halbach.
1000
01:12:53,340 --> 01:12:55,580
They're just responding
to what they have.
1001
01:12:55,605 --> 01:12:58,941
They can't go out and investigate.
They can't hire a scientist.
1002
01:12:59,275 --> 01:13:02,511
And so, you can't fault
them at this point.
1003
01:13:02,578 --> 01:13:07,617
I still believe in the fundamental
fairness of the courts
1004
01:13:07,683 --> 01:13:10,419
if you give them the evidence.
1005
01:13:11,187 --> 01:13:12,955
No one's done that yet.
1006
01:13:13,956 --> 01:13:15,458
No one has done that.
1007
01:13:17,793 --> 01:13:19,896
And that's why we're
taking it up on appeal.
1008
01:13:19,962 --> 01:13:22,932
We're trying to give them this evidence.
1009
01:13:22,999 --> 01:13:26,102
And if they say, "No, it isn't
enough," or "It isn't, it's partial,"
1010
01:13:26,168 --> 01:13:28,437
then I'll go back and I'll get more.
1011
01:13:28,771 --> 01:13:30,907
But, I mean, it just...
It is what it is.
1012
01:13:30,973 --> 01:13:33,509
He's been wrongfully convicted twice,
1013
01:13:33,843 --> 01:13:36,579
and my job is to prove that.
1014
01:13:44,887 --> 01:13:46,989
The supporters don't know what to do
1015
01:13:47,056 --> 01:13:48,624
because it's taking so long.
1016
01:13:52,161 --> 01:13:54,096
When you're fighting for your innocence
1017
01:13:54,664 --> 01:13:57,199
and you need the truth
out, it takes time.
1018
01:13:58,668 --> 01:14:02,972
You got to give the lawyer time
so she can doit a good job,
1019
01:14:03,039 --> 01:14:07,610
so we can just throw it out, you know?
1020
01:14:11,314 --> 01:14:13,916
It's just one, two,
three, you're locked up.
1021
01:14:13,983 --> 01:14:16,152
And then it takes forever to get out.
1022
01:14:16,819 --> 01:14:18,587
You know, and that's the way it is.
1023
01:14:19,355 --> 01:14:22,925
Hurry up and get in, and take
your time on the way out.
1024
01:14:27,897 --> 01:14:29,832
But then, when you got the proof there,
1025
01:14:30,933 --> 01:14:32,668
that's one, two, three, you're out.
1026
01:14:36,706 --> 01:14:37,940
Like the first time.
1027
01:14:40,042 --> 01:14:43,612
They ran the DNA, and
then boom, I was out.
1028
01:14:46,115 --> 01:14:48,351
So, now we gotta do the
same thing on this.
1029
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:07,760
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