1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:05,659 English Subtitle£ºJay-Z_MrT @ Áùά Ó¢ÎÄ×ÖÄ»´ÓµÚ♪þ·ÖÖÓ¿ªÊ¼£¬¿ÉÄÜÓÐÒ»µãµã覴à Thanks for Google's h 2 00:02:15,079 --> 00:02:21,549 It's been said that the wars of the 21st century may well be fought over water. The Earth's population 3 00:02:21,549 --> 00:02:27,120 has more than doubled over the last 50 years and the demand for fresh water -- to drink 4 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:33,900 and to grow food -- has surged along with it. But sources of water like rainfall, rivers, 5 00:02:33,900 --> 00:02:40,650 streams, reservoirs, certainly haven't doubled. So where is all that extra water coming from? 6 00:02:40,650 --> 00:02:44,279 More and more, it's being pumped out of the ground. 7 00:02:44,279 --> 00:02:49,569 Water experts say groundwater is like a savings account -- something you draw on in times 8 00:02:49,569 --> 00:02:56,519 of need. But savings accounts need to be replenished, and there is new evidence that so much water 9 00:02:56,519 --> 00:03:05,139 is being taken out, much of the world is in danger of a groundwater overdraft. 10 00:03:05,139 --> 00:03:10,069 California is entering its fourth year of a record-breaking drought. Last year was the 11 00:03:10,069 --> 00:03:15,939 driest since the state started keeping records more than a hundred years ago. And yet, pay 12 00:03:15,939 --> 00:03:21,930 a visit to California's Central Valley and out of that parched land you'll see acre upon 13 00:03:21,930 --> 00:03:31,930 acre of corn, almond trees, pomegranates, tomatoes, grapes. And what makes them all 14 00:03:31,999 --> 00:03:37,859 possible: water. Where do you get water in a drought? You take it out of the savings 15 00:03:37,859 --> 00:03:38,590 account: groundwater. 16 00:03:38,590 --> 00:03:43,309 [Jay Famiglietti: When we talk about surface water, we're talking about lakes and rivers. 17 00:03:43,309 --> 00:03:47,760 And when we're talking about groundwater, we're really talking about water below the 18 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:48,989 water table.] 19 00:03:48,989 --> 00:03:54,260 Jay Famiglietti, an Earth sciences professor at the University of California, Irvine, is 20 00:03:54,260 --> 00:03:55,769 a leading expert on groundwater. 21 00:03:55,769 --> 00:03:59,379 Jay Famiglietti: It's like a sponge. It's like an underground sponge. 22 00:03:59,379 --> 00:04:05,879 He's talking about the aquifers where groundwater is stored -- layers of soil and rock, as he 23 00:04:05,879 --> 00:04:11,599 showed us in this simple graphic, that are saturated with water and can be drilled into, 24 00:04:11,599 --> 00:04:13,459 like the three wells shown here. 25 00:04:13,459 --> 00:04:15,889 Lesley Stahl: You can actually pump it out of the crevices? 26 00:04:15,889 --> 00:04:19,500 Jay Famiglietti: Imagine like trying to put a straw into a sponge. You can actually suck 27 00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:23,940 water right out of a sponge. It's a very similar process. 28 00:04:23,940 --> 00:04:30,440 Sucking the water out of those aquifers is big business these days in the Central Valley. 29 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,710 Well driller Steve Arthur is a very busy man. 30 00:04:33,710 --> 00:04:39,030 Steve Arthur: All the farmers, they don't have no surface water. They've got to keep 31 00:04:39,030 --> 00:04:46,220 these crops alive. The only way to do that is to drill wells, pump the water from the 32 00:04:46,220 --> 00:04:46,440 ground. 33 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,440 Lesley Stahl: So it's either drill or go out of business? 34 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,260 Steve Arthur: Yes. 35 00:04:52,260 --> 00:04:57,350 So there's something of a groundwater rush going on here. Arthur's seven rigs are in 36 00:04:57,350 --> 00:05:02,980 constant use and his waiting list is well over a year. And because some wells here are 37 00:05:02,980 --> 00:05:09,410 running dry, he's having to drill twice as deep as he did just a year or two ago. This 38 00:05:09,410 --> 00:05:16,290 well will cost the farmer a quarter of a million dollars, and go down 1,200 feet -- about the 39 00:05:16,290 --> 00:05:18,520 height of the Empire State Building. 40 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,700 Lesley Stahl: Are you and are the farmers worried that by going that deep you are depleting 41 00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:23,500 the ground water? 42 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:29,830 Steve Arthur: Well, yes, we are depleting it. But on the other hand, what choice do 43 00:05:29,830 --> 00:05:34,820 you have? This is the most fertile valley in the world. You can grow anything you want 44 00:05:34,820 --> 00:05:40,250 here. If we don't have water to grow something, it's going to be a desert. 45 00:05:40,250 --> 00:05:45,810 He said many farmers think the problem is cyclical and that once the drought ends, things 46 00:05:45,810 --> 00:05:46,780 will be okay. 47 00:05:46,780 --> 00:05:50,380 Lesley Stahl: Now when they take water out and it rains... 48 00:05:50,380 --> 00:05:51,350 Jay Famiglietti: Yes. 49 00:05:51,350 --> 00:05:53,620 Lesley Stahl: ...doesn't the water go back down there? 50 00:05:53,620 --> 00:05:57,920 Jay Famiglietti: These aquifers near the surface, they can sometimes be replenished very quickly. 51 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,820 If we're talking about a deeper aquifer, that could take tens or hundreds of years to recharge. 52 00:06:02,820 --> 00:06:09,890 Figuring out how much is being depleted from those aquifers deep underground isn't easy. 53 00:06:09,890 --> 00:06:15,170 Hydrologist Claudia Faunt took us to what looked like someone's backyard shed, where 54 00:06:15,170 --> 00:06:20,560 she and her colleagues at the U.S. Geological Survey monitor groundwater levels in the Central 55 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:26,140 Valley the way they always have -- by dropping a sensor down a monitoring well. 56 00:06:26,140 --> 00:06:27,270 Lesley Stahl: So this is a well. 57 00:06:27,270 --> 00:06:30,850 Claudia Faunt: This is a well. So we have a tape here that has a sensor on the end. 58 00:06:30,850 --> 00:06:31,650 Lesley Stahl: Oh, let me see. 59 00:06:31,650 --> 00:06:36,280 The Geological Survey has 20,000 wells like this across the country. 60 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:37,330 Lesley Stahl: It's a tape measure. 61 00:06:37,330 --> 00:06:38,000 Claudia Faunt: It's a tape measure. 62 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,600 Lesley Stahl: How will you know when it hits water? 63 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,270 Claudia Faunt: It's going to beep. 64 00:06:41,270 --> 00:06:46,680 By comparing measurements from different wells over time, they get the best picture they 65 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:54,340 can of where groundwater levels stand. She unspooled and unspooled, until finally... 66 00:06:54,340 --> 00:06:54,810 [Beep] 67 00:06:54,810 --> 00:06:56,220 Lesley Stahl: Oh. 68 00:06:56,220 --> 00:07:01,680 It startled me, as did the result: a five-foot drop in just one month. 69 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,700 Claudia Faunt: Right now, we're reaching water levels that are at historic lows, they're 70 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:04,880 like... 71 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,010 Lesley Stahl: Historic lows? 72 00:07:06,010 --> 00:07:10,210 Claudia Faunt: Right. At this site, water levels have dropped about 200 feet in the 73 00:07:10,210 --> 00:07:11,500 last few years. 74 00:07:11,500 --> 00:07:16,080 Gathering data from holes in the ground like this has been the only way to get a handle 75 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:25,340 on groundwater depletion. That is, until 2002, and the launch of an experimental NASA satellite 76 00:07:25,340 --> 00:07:26,330 called GRACE. 77 00:07:26,330 --> 00:07:28,210 Lesley Stahl: What does GRACE stand for? 78 00:07:28,210 --> 00:07:32,110 Mike Watkins: So GRACE stands for gravity recovery and climate experiment. 79 00:07:32,110 --> 00:07:38,830 Mike Watkins is head of the Science Division at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena. 80 00:07:38,830 --> 00:07:44,230 He was the mission manager for the latest Mars rover mission and he is the project scientist 81 00:07:44,230 --> 00:07:44,710 for GRACE. 82 00:07:44,710 --> 00:07:46,780 Mike Watkins: So the way GRACE works is it's two satellites. 83 00:07:46,780 --> 00:07:47,530 Lesley Stahl: Two? 84 00:07:47,530 --> 00:07:51,360 Mike Watkins: They're actually measuring each other's orbit very, very accurately. 85 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,250 What affects that orbit is gravity. 86 00:07:53,250 --> 00:07:57,230 Mike Watkins: As the first one comes up on some extra mass, an area of higher gravity, 87 00:07:57,230 --> 00:07:58,040 it gets pulled away... 88 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:58,650 Lesley Stahl: It goes faster. 89 00:07:58,650 --> 00:08:00,700 Mike Watkins: ...from the second spacecraft. 90 00:08:00,700 --> 00:08:06,750 And that's where water comes in. Since water has mass, it affects the pull of gravity, 91 00:08:06,750 --> 00:08:12,040 so after the first GRACE satellite approaches an area that's had lots of heavy rain for 92 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:18,850 example, and is pulled ahead, the second one gets there, feels the pull and catches up. 93 00:08:18,850 --> 00:08:22,220 The instruments are constantly measuring the distance between the two. 94 00:08:22,220 --> 00:08:25,850 Mike Watkins: Their changes in separation, their changes in their orbit are a little 95 00:08:25,850 --> 00:08:29,639 different this month than last month because water moved around and it changed the gravity 96 00:08:29,639 --> 00:08:30,889 field just enough. 97 00:08:30,889 --> 00:08:35,500 So GRACE can tell whether an area has gained water weight or lost it. 98 00:08:35,500 --> 00:08:38,430 Lesley Stahl: So GRACE is like a big scale in the sky? 99 00:08:38,430 --> 00:08:39,969 Mike Watkins: Absolutely. 100 00:08:39,969 --> 00:08:46,460 GRACE can also tell how much water an area has gained or lost. Scientists can then subtract 101 00:08:46,460 --> 00:08:52,110 out the amount of rain and snowfall there, and what's left are the changes in groundwater. 102 00:08:52,110 --> 00:08:58,820 Lesley Stahl: It's kind of brilliant to think that a satellite in the sky is measuring groundwater. 103 00:08:58,820 --> 00:08:59,890 Mike Watkins: It is fantastic. 104 00:08:59,890 --> 00:09:04,260 Jay Famiglietti: I thought it was complete nonsense. There's no way we can see groundwater 105 00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:05,529 from space. 106 00:09:05,529 --> 00:09:11,140 Jay Famiglietti started out a skeptic, but that was before he began analyzing the data 107 00:09:11,140 --> 00:09:17,760 GRACE sent back. The first place he looked was India. He showed us a time-lapse animation 108 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:23,480 of the changes GRACE detected there over the last 12 years. Note the dates on the lower 109 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,290 right. The redder it gets, the greater the loss of water. 110 00:09:27,290 --> 00:09:29,000 Lesley Stahl: Oh, look at that. 111 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,130 He calculated that more than half the loss was due to groundwater depletion. 112 00:09:33,130 --> 00:09:35,860 Jay Famiglietti: And this is a huge agricultural region. 113 00:09:35,860 --> 00:09:38,200 Lesley Stahl: Have they been doing the same kind of pumping... 114 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:38,779 Jay Famiglietti: Yes. 115 00:09:38,779 --> 00:09:40,140 Lesley Stahl: ...that we're seeing in California? 116 00:09:40,140 --> 00:09:40,730 Jay Famiglietti: Yes. 117 00:09:40,730 --> 00:09:42,750 Lesley Stahl: It got so dark red. 118 00:09:42,750 --> 00:09:44,380 Jay Famiglietti: Yeah, that's bad. 119 00:09:44,380 --> 00:09:49,520 His India findings were published in the journal "Nature." But as he showed us, India wasn't 120 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,100 the only red spot on the GRACE map. 121 00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:56,070 Jay Famiglietti: This is right outside Beijing, Bangladesh and then across southern Asia. 122 00:09:56,070 --> 00:09:57,420 He noticed a pattern. 123 00:09:57,420 --> 00:10:03,940 Jay Famiglietti: They are almost exclusively located over the major aquifers of the world. 124 00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:08,410 And those are also our big food-producing regions. So we're talking about groundwater 125 00:10:08,410 --> 00:10:13,750 depletion in the aquifers that supply irrigation water to grow the world's food. 126 00:10:13,750 --> 00:10:19,800 If that isn't worrisome enough, some of those aquifer systems are in volatile regions, for 127 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:25,100 instance this one that is shared by Syria, Iraq, Iran and Turkey. 128 00:10:25,100 --> 00:10:29,080 Jay Famiglietti: Turkey's built a bunch of dams. Stored a bunch of water upstream. That 129 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,750 forces the downstream neighbors to use more groundwater and the groundwater's being depleted. 130 00:10:32,750 --> 00:10:33,270 Lesley Stahl: Oh my. 131 00:10:33,270 --> 00:10:38,250 Jay Famiglietti: We're seeing this water loss spread literally right across Iran, Iraq and 132 00:10:38,250 --> 00:10:40,100 into Syria and down. 133 00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:41,130 Lesley Stahl: It's progressive. 134 00:10:41,130 --> 00:10:46,410 Famiglietti, who's now moved to the jet propulsion lab to work on GRACE, has started traveling 135 00:10:46,410 --> 00:10:51,910 around the world, trying to alert governments and academics to the problem, and he isn't 136 00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:54,089 the only one who's worried. 137 00:10:54,089 --> 00:11:00,750 A 2012 report from the director of National Intelligence warned that within 10 years "many 138 00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:05,470 countries important to the United States will experience water problems ... that will risk 139 00:11:05,470 --> 00:11:11,520 instability and state failure..." and cited the possible "use of water as a weapon or 140 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,690 to further terrorist objectives." 141 00:11:13,690 --> 00:11:15,060 Lesley Stahl: Water is the new oil. 142 00:11:15,060 --> 00:11:18,160 Jay Famiglietti: It's true. It's headed in that direction. 143 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:24,140 And what about our own food-producing regions, like California's Central Valley, which produces 144 00:11:24,140 --> 00:11:28,370 25 percent of the nation's food. What is GRACE telling us there? 145 00:11:28,370 --> 00:11:29,040 Lesley Stahl: 2008. 146 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:29,710 Jay Famiglietti: Right. 147 00:11:29,710 --> 00:11:30,380 Lesley Stahl: '09. 148 00:11:30,380 --> 00:11:33,070 Jay Famiglietti: And now things are going to start to get very red. 149 00:11:33,070 --> 00:11:33,980 Lesley Stahl: 2010. 150 00:11:33,980 --> 00:11:40,190 GRACE is confirming what the geological survey well measures have shown, but giving a broader 151 00:11:40,190 --> 00:11:45,779 and more frightening picture, since it shows that the rainy years are not making up for 152 00:11:45,779 --> 00:11:46,500 the losses. 153 00:11:46,500 --> 00:11:48,810 Lesley Stahl: '14. Dark red. 154 00:11:48,810 --> 00:11:50,670 Lesley Stahl: That's alarming. 155 00:11:50,670 --> 00:11:52,980 Jay Famiglietti: It should be. 156 00:11:52,980 --> 00:11:58,250 So much groundwater has been pumped out here that the geological survey says it's causing 157 00:11:58,250 --> 00:12:04,170 another problem: parts of the valley are literally sinking. It's called subsidence. 158 00:12:04,170 --> 00:12:09,529 Claudia Faunt: So the ground basically collapses or compresses down and the land sinks. 159 00:12:09,529 --> 00:12:11,779 Lesley Stahl: The land is sinking down. 160 00:12:11,779 --> 00:12:15,890 She said at this spot, the ground is dropping several inches a year. 161 00:12:15,890 --> 00:12:18,420 Claudia Faunt: And north of here, it's more like a foot per year. 162 00:12:18,420 --> 00:12:20,610 Lesley Stahl: That sounds like a lot, a foot a year. 163 00:12:20,610 --> 00:12:25,490 Claudia Faunt: It's some of the fastest rates we have ever seen in the valley, and in the 164 00:12:25,490 --> 00:12:26,399 world. 165 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:33,420 She says it's caused damage to infrastructure: buckles in canals and sinking bridges. Here 166 00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:39,330 the land has sunk six feet. It used to be level with the top of this concrete slab. 167 00:12:39,330 --> 00:12:42,410 Lesley Stahl: And this is because of the pumping of the groundwater? 168 00:12:42,410 --> 00:12:43,170 Claudia Faunt: Yes. 169 00:12:43,170 --> 00:12:48,250 Lesley Stahl: Is there any limit on a farmer, as to how much he can actually take out of 170 00:12:48,250 --> 00:12:49,250 this groundwater? 171 00:12:49,250 --> 00:12:51,170 Claudia Faunt: Not right now in the state of California. 172 00:12:51,170 --> 00:12:51,440 Lesley Stahl: None? 173 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,110 Claudia Faunt: As long as you put it to a beneficial use, you can take as much as you 174 00:12:54,110 --> 00:12:55,060 want. 175 00:12:55,060 --> 00:12:58,890 But what's beneficial to you may not be beneficial to your neighbor. 176 00:12:58,890 --> 00:13:04,390 Lesley Stahl: When you dig a well like this, are you taking water from the next farm? 177 00:13:04,390 --> 00:13:08,660 Steve Arthur: I would say yeah. We're taking water from everybody. 178 00:13:08,660 --> 00:13:11,670 Lesley Stahl: Well, is that neighbor going to be unhappy? 179 00:13:11,670 --> 00:13:16,399 Steve Arthur: No. Everybody knows that there's a water problem. Everybody knows you got to 180 00:13:16,399 --> 00:13:19,910 drill deeper, deeper. And it's funny you say that because we're actually going to drill 181 00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:23,940 a well for that farmer next door also. 182 00:13:23,940 --> 00:13:28,360 Making things worse, farmers have actually been planting what are known as "thirsty" 183 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:35,320 crops. We saw orchard after orchard of almond trees. Almonds draw big profits, but they 184 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:41,720 need water all year long, and farmers can never let fields go fallow, or the trees will 185 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:43,399 die. 186 00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:49,260 But with all the water depletion here, we did find one place that is pumping water back 187 00:13:49,260 --> 00:13:50,160 into its aquifer. 188 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,100 Lesley Stahl: Look, it really looks ickier up close. 189 00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:59,870 We took a ride with Mike Markus, general manager of the Orange County Water District and a 190 00:13:59,870 --> 00:14:07,820 program some call "toilet to tap." They take 96-million gallons a day of treated wastewater 191 00:14:07,820 --> 00:14:14,779 from a county sanitation plant -- and yes, that includes sewage -- and in effect, recycle 192 00:14:14,779 --> 00:14:19,470 it. He says in 45 minutes, this sewage water will be drinkable. 193 00:14:19,470 --> 00:14:20,760 Mike Markus: You'll love it. 194 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,050 Lesley Stahl: You think I'm going to drink that water? 195 00:14:23,050 --> 00:14:24,430 Mike Markus: Yes, you will. 196 00:14:24,430 --> 00:14:30,810 They put the wastewater through an elaborate three-step process: suck it through microscopic 197 00:14:30,810 --> 00:14:38,230 filters, force it through membranes, blast it with UV light. By the end, Markus insists 198 00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:44,180 it's purer than the water we drink. But it doesn't go straight to the tap. They send 199 00:14:44,180 --> 00:14:48,250 it to this basin and then use it to replenish the groundwater. 200 00:14:48,250 --> 00:14:53,410 Jay Famiglietti: It's amazing. Because of recycling of sewage water, they've been able 201 00:14:53,410 --> 00:14:58,070 to arrest that decline in the groundwater. 202 00:14:58,070 --> 00:14:59,770 Lesley Stahl: All right. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. 203 00:14:59,770 --> 00:15:07,980 All that was left was to try it. To tell the truth, it wasn't bad. 204 00:15:07,980 --> 00:15:12,660 Lesley Stahl: I can't believe how brave I am. Forty-five minutes ago, this was sewer 205 00:15:12,660 --> 00:15:12,800 water. 206 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,790 Mike Markus: And now, it's drinkable. 207 00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:19,880 He says it's a great model for big cities around the country. But it's not the answer 208 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:25,800 for areas like the Central Valley, which is sparsely populated and therefore doesn't produce 209 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:33,730 enough waste. So at least for now, it's continuing withdrawals from that savings account. 210 00:15:33,730 --> 00:15:39,330 Lesley Stahl: Will there be a time when there is zero water in the aquifer for people in 211 00:15:39,330 --> 00:15:39,660 California? 212 00:15:39,660 --> 00:15:44,660 Jay Famiglietti: Unless we take action, yes. 213 00:15:44,660 --> 00:15:49,800 California has just taken action -- enacted a law that for the first time takes steps 214 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:56,800 toward regulating groundwater. But it could take 25 years to fully implement. 215 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:11,339 At the heart of Pope Francis' revolution in the Catholic Church is a shy Franciscan friar, 216 00:16:11,339 --> 00:16:16,589 the pope's closest American advisor, Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley. The pope has appointed 217 00:16:16,589 --> 00:16:21,980 him president of the Church's crucial new commission to combat child abuse and named 218 00:16:21,980 --> 00:16:26,660 him a member of the Council of Cardinals, the pope's small "kitchen cabinet" charged 219 00:16:26,660 --> 00:16:30,240 with helping redraw the way the church is governed. 220 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:36,010 Soft-spoken and unassuming, he is usually dressed in the brown habit of his Capuchin 221 00:16:36,010 --> 00:16:41,810 Franciscan order and not in a Cardinal's red robes. He goes by "Cardinal Se¨¢n." And 222 00:16:41,810 --> 00:16:47,350 like Pope Francis, he is more inclined to conversation than condemnation. He commutes 223 00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:53,230 to Rome from his day job as archbishop of Boston to help Francis remake an ancient institution. 224 00:16:53,230 --> 00:16:59,209 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: It's a very different world now because of his style. 225 00:16:59,209 --> 00:17:05,519 Part of that style includes the pope's reliance on advisors like Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley. 226 00:17:05,519 --> 00:17:10,579 O'Malley not only works closely with the pope, but stays with him at the Vatican guesthouse 227 00:17:10,579 --> 00:17:12,679 when he comes to Rome on business. 228 00:17:12,679 --> 00:17:17,220 Norah O'Donnell: When you come here to Rome, you stay at the Domus Sanctae Marthae, which 229 00:17:17,220 --> 00:17:18,429 is just right over there. 230 00:17:18,429 --> 00:17:19,510 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Yes, ordinarily. Yeah. 231 00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:21,740 Norah O'Donnell: That means you're roommates with the pope. 232 00:17:21,740 --> 00:17:26,549 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well, yes, you see him at all the meals. And very often will 233 00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:32,010 go and celebrate mass with him in the morning. And we have our meetings right there. 234 00:17:32,010 --> 00:17:37,010 Cardinal O'Malley and then-Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of Buenos Aires became fast friends 235 00:17:37,010 --> 00:17:43,540 when the Boston archbishop visited Argentina on church business in 2010. If you want to 236 00:17:43,540 --> 00:17:48,030 understand Pope Francis, you'd do well to look at Cardinal O'Malley. 237 00:17:48,030 --> 00:17:52,429 Norah O'Donnell: You knew him before. I mean, did you know that he would be this kind of 238 00:17:52,429 --> 00:17:52,730 a leader? 239 00:17:52,730 --> 00:18:00,120 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: I knew that he would be different. I am delighted that he 240 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,480 is beyond my expectations. 241 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:10,460 Both share the same outlook -- open, non-judgmental, given to simple living, and not afraid to 242 00:18:10,460 --> 00:18:12,590 consider change. 243 00:18:12,590 --> 00:18:17,660 One change is the pope's recognition that child abuse is a church-wide problem that 244 00:18:17,660 --> 00:18:23,700 can no longer be ignored or covered up by bishops. O'Malley has more experience than 245 00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:28,830 any bishop in the church when it comes to cleaning up child abuse. And Pope Francis 246 00:18:28,830 --> 00:18:33,370 turned to him to lead a new child protection commission for the entire church. 247 00:18:33,370 --> 00:18:36,470 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well, it's something that I brought to the Commission of Cardinals 248 00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:43,309 and we've talked about it. And the cardinals were very, very supportive. And the Holy Father, 249 00:18:43,309 --> 00:18:46,270 he's a great listener 250 00:18:46,270 --> 00:18:47,010 [INSERT EXTRA: How the abuse crisis has damaged the church] 251 00:18:47,010 --> 00:18:49,290 Norah O'Donnell: Has the Vatican resisted it in the past? 252 00:18:49,290 --> 00:18:55,010 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: I think even here, particularly in the past, there was 253 00:18:55,010 --> 00:18:57,280 the feeling that this was an American problem. 254 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:02,559 Norah O'Donnell: But is there a recognition inside the Vatican that this is intolerable. 255 00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:08,630 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Certainly, the Holy Father is very, very aware of that and 256 00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:17,830 very committed to zero tolerance and to responding in a proper way to this phenomenon of child abuse. 257 00:19:18,220 --> 00:19:23,549 Despite his office and influence in Rome, Cardinal O'Malley is a modest man, reluctant 258 00:19:23,549 --> 00:19:29,380 to put himself forward. He is humble, a true Franciscan, who would rather be addressed 259 00:19:29,380 --> 00:19:34,290 as "Cardinal Se¨¢n," than "your Eminence." It took more than a year to convince him to 260 00:19:34,290 --> 00:19:40,420 agree to an interview. But, he is so approachable you can talk with him about nearly anything. 261 00:19:40,420 --> 00:19:43,760 Norah O'Donnell: Now, your shoes look a lot more comfortable than mine. 262 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,640 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well, 50 years of wearing sandals. 263 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,770 Norah O'Donnell: Well, do you ever have to wear closed-toe shoes? 264 00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:55,650 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well, when I'm disguised as a cardinal. 265 00:19:55,650 --> 00:19:58,429 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Which isn't very often. 266 00:19:58,429 --> 00:20:03,120 His reputation for cleaning up the church began when he was installed as bishop of Fall 267 00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:08,280 River, Massachusetts, where O'Malley inherited one of the most notorious child abuse cases 268 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:14,929 in history. Instead of lawyering up, O'Malley began reaching out directly to victims, settling 269 00:20:14,929 --> 00:20:22,150 cases and acting as a pastor, not a CEO. His success led to a transfer to Palm Beach, where 270 00:20:22,150 --> 00:20:29,820 the previous two bishops resigned after accusations of abuse. Then, in 2002, the Vatican sent 271 00:20:29,820 --> 00:20:30,770 him to Boston. 272 00:20:30,770 --> 00:20:33,360 [INSERT EXTRA: Becoming Archbishop of Boston] 273 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:35,490 Norah O'Donnell: Were you worried? 274 00:20:35,490 --> 00:20:37,610 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Yes. Terrified. 275 00:20:37,610 --> 00:20:43,760 Terrified because the Archdiocese of Boston, the onetime symbol of American Catholicism 276 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:49,330 was dissolving, thanks to what was then the biggest sex abuse scandal in church history. 277 00:20:49,330 --> 00:20:52,270 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: There were a thousand lawsuits against us. The seminary 278 00:20:52,270 --> 00:20:58,669 was empty. As I say such anger, disappointment, upset on the part of the people. 279 00:20:58,669 --> 00:21:00,090 Norah O'Donnell: This was a pretty tough assignment? 280 00:21:00,090 --> 00:21:03,890 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: It was -- somebody described it as a fixer-upper. 281 00:21:03,890 --> 00:21:12,890 And he began fixing it up on his first day on the job 11 years ago by doing something 282 00:21:12,890 --> 00:21:17,910 bishops seldom do: admitting what had happened and apologizing for it. 283 00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:24,470 [Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: At the beginning of this installation ceremony, I again ask 284 00:21:24,470 --> 00:21:32,640 forgiveness for all the harm done to young people by clergy, religious and hierarchy.] 285 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,750 Se¨¢n O'Malley set a new tone in Boston. The first thing he did was sell the palatial 286 00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:41,470 archbishop's residence and the 28 sprawling acres it sat on. 287 00:21:41,470 --> 00:21:45,260 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well the archbishop's residence was more house than I needed. 288 00:21:45,260 --> 00:21:48,240 Norah O'Donnell: Did you realize how big an impact it would have, that decision? 289 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,640 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well, I knew it would have an economic impact on the diocese. 290 00:21:51,640 --> 00:22:00,320 And at the time I was very grateful that we had this mansion to unload and because we 291 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,169 sold it for over 100 million dollars. 292 00:22:03,169 --> 00:22:08,470 O'Malley moved into the modest cathedral rectory. He has a deep devotion to working with the 293 00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:14,980 poor, particularly immigrants. And is a prominent voice -- in any of eight languages -- in the 294 00:22:14,980 --> 00:22:21,390 Catholic Church's call for immigration reform. Earlier this year he led a mass at the border 295 00:22:21,390 --> 00:22:29,450 wall in Nogales, Arizona, even distributing communion through the fence to call attention 296 00:22:29,450 --> 00:22:37,280 to the problem and the church's position on reform. The pope, who has been a strong voice 297 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:43,350 for immigrant rights, called it "a powerful picture." 298 00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:50,929 But it's O'Malley's work to reform the church on child abuse where he has made the biggest 299 00:22:50,929 --> 00:22:51,320 impact. 300 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:56,140 Norah O'Donnell: For many people outside the church and inside the church, the biggest 301 00:22:56,140 --> 00:23:02,809 scandal isn't the predators, it's the bishops. The bishops who protected them and lied about 302 00:23:02,809 --> 00:23:10,470 them and moved them from parish to parish. And many of these predators have been prosecuted. 303 00:23:10,470 --> 00:23:14,210 But the bishops have not. Why is that? 304 00:23:14,210 --> 00:23:18,980 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: One of the first things that came up is the importance of accountability. 305 00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:28,410 And we're looking at how the church could have protocols, how to respond when a bishop 306 00:23:28,410 --> 00:23:34,840 has not been responsible for the protection of children in his diocese. 307 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:40,549 Norah O'Donnell: I want to ask you about Robert Finn, who is the bishop of Kansas City/St. 308 00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:45,090 Joseph and, as you know, he pleaded guilty to a criminal misdemeanor for not reporting 309 00:23:45,090 --> 00:23:53,910 one of his priests to authorities. Bishop Finn wouldn't be able to teach Sunday school 310 00:23:53,910 --> 00:23:54,250 in Boston. 311 00:23:54,250 --> 00:23:55,450 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: That's right. 312 00:23:55,450 --> 00:23:57,530 Norah O'Donnell: How is that zero tolerance... 313 00:23:57,530 --> 00:23:58,240 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well... 314 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:04,660 Norah O'Donnell: ...that he's still in place? What does it say to Catholics? 315 00:24:04,660 --> 00:24:08,799 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well, it's a question that the Holy See needs to address 316 00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:09,419 urgently. 317 00:24:09,419 --> 00:24:11,380 Norah O'Donnell: And there's a recognition? 318 00:24:11,380 --> 00:24:14,450 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: There's a recognition of that. 319 00:24:14,450 --> 00:24:16,120 Norah O'Donnell: From Pope Francis? 320 00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:16,730 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: From Pope Francis. 321 00:24:16,730 --> 00:24:17,539 [INSERT OT: Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley's careful candor] 322 00:24:17,539 --> 00:24:23,190 The cardinal's careful candor isn't limited to the church's mishandling of abuse. Take 323 00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:28,090 the Vatican doctrine office's crackdown on American nuns for focusing more on social 324 00:24:28,090 --> 00:24:34,100 justice than issues like abortion and contraception -- placing the nuns under the supervision 325 00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:35,100 of three bishops. 326 00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:40,760 Norah O'Donnell: It looked like a crackdown from men at the Vatican on... 327 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,260 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: A disaster. 328 00:24:42,260 --> 00:24:43,470 Norah O'Donnell: A disaster? 329 00:24:43,470 --> 00:24:44,669 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Disaster. 330 00:24:44,669 --> 00:24:48,799 Norah O'Donnell: Should there be more women in positions of power in the Curia? 331 00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:52,380 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Yes. I think there should be. And hopefully, there will 332 00:24:52,380 --> 00:24:53,039 be. 333 00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:55,039 Norah O'Donnell: When? 334 00:24:55,039 --> 00:25:02,260 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well, I can't tell you what time, but hopefully soon, you 335 00:25:02,260 --> 00:25:02,789 know. 336 00:25:02,789 --> 00:25:08,190 So far, there is little in the way of concrete change, but Cardinal O'Malley spends about 337 00:25:08,190 --> 00:25:14,450 one week every other month in Rome, otherwise he and the pope stay in contact using a technology 338 00:25:14,450 --> 00:25:17,669 that seems almost as dated as illuminated manuscripts. 339 00:25:17,669 --> 00:25:19,799 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Usually the, we fax. 340 00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:20,710 Norah O'Donnell: Really? 341 00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:21,919 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Yes. 342 00:25:21,919 --> 00:25:23,660 Norah O'Donnell: You fax with the pope? 343 00:25:23,660 --> 00:25:24,419 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Yes. 344 00:25:24,419 --> 00:25:26,179 Norah O'Donnell: People still communicate by fax? 345 00:25:26,179 --> 00:25:28,039 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Still communicate by fax. 346 00:25:28,039 --> 00:25:29,370 Norah O'Donnell: Like, with letters or... 347 00:25:29,370 --> 00:25:30,549 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Uh-huh. 348 00:25:30,549 --> 00:25:31,440 Norah O'Donnell: Really? 349 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,530 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Oh. Very quick and efficient. And a little more private than... 350 00:25:36,530 --> 00:25:37,799 Norah O'Donnell: Most people think... 351 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:38,820 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Safer. 352 00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:39,830 Norah O'Donnell: Oh, really? 353 00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:40,850 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Uh-huh. 354 00:25:40,850 --> 00:25:43,549 Norah O'Donnell: Most people think texting is quicker than faxing. 355 00:25:43,549 --> 00:25:48,039 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well, the pope and I aren't about texting. 356 00:25:48,039 --> 00:25:53,030 His choice of communication technology is not the only thing conservative about him. 357 00:25:53,030 --> 00:25:57,860 Church traditionalists accuse him of being a closet liberal for participating in ecumenical 358 00:25:57,860 --> 00:26:04,100 services and presiding at the funeral of abortion rights supporter Ted Kennedy. But the cardinal 359 00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:10,410 is a hard-liner on Catholic doctrine. Like Pope Francis, he upholds traditional positions 360 00:26:10,410 --> 00:26:14,200 on abortion, gay marriage, birth control and women's ordination. 361 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,460 [INSERT EXTRA: Presiding at Senator Edward Kennedy's funeral] 362 00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:21,130 Norah O'Donnell: The church says it's not open to the discussion about ordaining women. 363 00:26:21,130 --> 00:26:22,039 Why not? 364 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:28,450 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Not everyone needs to be ordained to have an important 365 00:26:28,450 --> 00:26:37,799 role in the life of the church. Women run the Catholic charities, the Catholic schools, 366 00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:39,510 the development office for the archdiocese. 367 00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:42,169 Norah O'Donnell: Some would say women do a lot of the work but have very little power. 368 00:26:42,169 --> 00:26:47,520 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well "power" is not a word that we like to use in the church. 369 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:48,340 It's more service. 370 00:26:48,340 --> 00:26:51,880 Norah O'Donnell: But they can't preach. They can't administer the sacraments. 371 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:52,530 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well... 372 00:26:52,530 --> 00:26:56,330 Norah O'Donnell: I mean, some women feel like they're second class Catholics because they 373 00:26:56,330 --> 00:26:58,510 can't do those things that are very important. 374 00:26:58,510 --> 00:27:03,210 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well, they, but they're, they have other very important roles 375 00:27:03,210 --> 00:27:13,210 that, you know, a priest cannot be a mother, either. The tradition of the church is that 376 00:27:13,860 --> 00:27:22,730 we have always ordained men. And that the priesthood reflects the incarnation of Christ, 377 00:27:22,730 --> 00:27:26,289 who in his humanity is a man. 378 00:27:26,289 --> 00:27:34,960 Norah O'Donnell: But in spite of that, does the exclusion of women seem at all immoral? 379 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:42,320 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well, Christ would never ask us to do something immoral. 380 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:48,159 And I know that women in... 381 00:27:48,159 --> 00:27:54,150 Norah O'Donnell: The sense of equality. I mean, just the sense of sort of the fairness 382 00:27:54,150 --> 00:28:03,590 of it, you know. You wouldn't exclude someone based on race. But yet you do exclude people 383 00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:04,690 based on gender. 384 00:28:04,690 --> 00:28:12,270 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: Well, it's a matter of vocation. And what God has given 385 00:28:12,270 --> 00:28:21,539 to us. And this is, you know, if I were founding a church, you know, I'd love to have women 386 00:28:21,539 --> 00:28:28,909 priests. But Christ founded it and what he he has given us is something different. 387 00:28:28,909 --> 00:28:35,909 But God is not afraid of change, as Pope Francis has told his bishops. And Cardinal O'Malley 388 00:28:35,909 --> 00:28:37,520 is thrilled with his old friend. 389 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:43,120 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: I always had admiration for him but to see how he has made 390 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,590 this extraordinary impact on the church is so gratifying. 391 00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:50,650 Norah O'Donnell: And will change the future of this church. 392 00:28:50,650 --> 00:28:51,650 Cardinal Se¨¢n O'Malley: There's no doubt. 393 00:29:04,460 --> 00:29:09,000 Mandy Patinkin may not be a household name, but he is one of the most versatile performers 394 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:15,559 we've ever met. He is a classically trained but barely restrained stage actor. A no-holds-barred 395 00:29:15,559 --> 00:29:22,470 concert singer and a scene-stealing star of the big and small screens. For four decades, 396 00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:27,309 Mandy has put everything he has into every role he's played. But a funny thing happened 397 00:29:27,309 --> 00:29:32,929 along the way to stardom. Again and again, Mandy's career has unraveled at the hands 398 00:29:32,929 --> 00:29:39,840 of an unlikely villain: himself. Now at 61, his raw talent has carried him to the top 399 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:46,110 again, with his portrayal of a CIA spy chief in "Homeland," the critically-acclaimed drama 400 00:29:46,110 --> 00:29:47,179 airing on CBS' sister network, Showtime. 401 00:29:47,179 --> 00:29:53,159 Mandy Patinkin: This is our point of view. So it's what we're seeing. 402 00:29:53,159 --> 00:29:58,169 We met him at this outdoor location, in of all places, Cape Town, where two streets have 403 00:29:58,169 --> 00:30:05,120 been transformed into a remote town in Pakistan. The show came to South Africa because of the 404 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:11,320 light, the ethnic diversity of the extras and primarily because of the tax breaks. 405 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:16,490 Mandy Patinkin: So I'm going to give you a little tour. 406 00:30:16,490 --> 00:30:22,809 They even relocated the entire "Homeland" soundstage here. Mandy, who plays spy Saul 407 00:30:22,809 --> 00:30:26,610 Berenson, was happy to show us around, at breakneck speed. 408 00:30:26,610 --> 00:30:27,799 Mandy Patinkin: This is the Hall of Presidents... 409 00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:29,530 Bob Simon: Does Saul walk this fast? 410 00:30:29,530 --> 00:30:30,720 Mandy Patinkin: Yes he does. 411 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:39,070 For the uninitiated, "Homeland" is Hollywood's depiction of the 14-year clandestine war between 412 00:30:39,070 --> 00:30:46,059 the CIA and Islamic terrorists. Patinkin's character, a former top CIA official, is the 413 00:30:46,059 --> 00:30:52,770 moral center of a messy, complicated world, where spies spin webs of deceit in a struggle 414 00:30:52,770 --> 00:30:54,059 most of us never see. 415 00:30:54,059 --> 00:31:02,270 Mandy Patinkin: On occasion, a well-constructed drama, can do what no reality or news program 416 00:31:02,270 --> 00:31:07,700 can do, what Shakespeare does brilliantly, is it can show both sides' opinions. 417 00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:12,070 [Haqqani: We did not fly those planes at the World Trade Center. Al Qaeda did.] 418 00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:14,230 [Saul Berenson: You harbored Osama Bin Laden.] 419 00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:18,049 [Haqqani: Bin Laden was a Saudi. I don't see you invading that country.] 420 00:31:18,049 --> 00:31:22,360 [Saul Berenson: We came here to kill or capture those directly responsible.] 421 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,590 Bob Simon: Did you talk to CIA people before you played the part? 422 00:31:25,590 --> 00:31:28,659 Mandy Patinkin: Yes, I did. And I continue to. And I'm not allowed to tell you who they 423 00:31:28,659 --> 00:31:28,820 are. 424 00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:31,659 Bob Simon: Don't tell me who they are. But tell me what they tell you and how you react 425 00:31:31,659 --> 00:31:32,020 to it. 426 00:31:32,020 --> 00:31:35,270 Mandy Patinkin: You know, I talk to a variety of them. So I'm going to pick the one that 427 00:31:35,270 --> 00:31:41,929 meets Mandy's slash Saul's heart and tempo and temperature. And so I found that guy and 428 00:31:41,929 --> 00:31:47,309 he tells me stuff because he wants me to understand how he cares about the world and why he does 429 00:31:47,309 --> 00:31:50,450 some of the horrible things that he does, quote unquote, "horrible." 430 00:31:50,450 --> 00:31:51,669 Bob Simon: But he does it. 431 00:31:51,669 --> 00:31:54,640 Mandy Patinkin: He does it because he's a soldier. 432 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,860 This season begins with an American bombing of a wedding party, kicking off a new cycle 433 00:31:59,860 --> 00:32:01,529 of vengeance and violence. 434 00:32:01,529 --> 00:32:07,960 Mandy Patinkin: I think the question of this particular season that I rarely see in American 435 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:15,150 television is: Who is the bad guy? Is America possibly the bad guy? 436 00:32:15,150 --> 00:32:18,400 Heavy stuff, for an actor who made his name in musical theater. 437 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,480 [Mandy Patinkin: Bit by bit! Only way to make a work of art. Every moment makes a contribution, 438 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,640 every little detail plays a part!] 439 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:31,299 This was Mandy 30 years ago, starring in Sondheim's "Sunday in the Park with George." He'd already 440 00:32:31,299 --> 00:32:36,500 won a Tony for "Evita," and critics' praise for his "fiercely intelligent" performances. 441 00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:41,630 [Mandy Patinkin: Putting it together. Bit by bit!] 442 00:32:41,630 --> 00:32:47,480 His preparation is legendary. He learned to fence for his most famous role in "The Princess 443 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,600 Bride," which also gave him his most memorable line. 444 00:32:51,600 --> 00:33:01,169 [Mandy Patinkin: Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.] 445 00:33:01,169 --> 00:33:05,070 People ask him to recite it to this day. So we did too. 446 00:33:05,070 --> 00:33:13,000 Mandy Patinkin: Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. 447 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:23,000 Then there are the people who know Mandy for this... 448 00:33:23,090 --> 00:33:28,820 He does nearly 50 concerts a year in cities across the country, singing an eclectic blend 449 00:33:28,820 --> 00:33:34,809 of show tunes, rock anthems and folk songs. Not bad for a guy who doesn't read music. 450 00:33:34,809 --> 00:33:40,039 Mandy Patinkin: I'm a lyrically driven person. I am not a musically driven person. That's 451 00:33:40,039 --> 00:33:43,539 why I love Sondheim. That's why I love Shakespeare. That's why I love Irving Berlin and Rodgers 452 00:33:43,539 --> 00:33:47,630 and Hammerstein and Tom Waits and Paul Simon and Randy Newman. They're storytellers. 453 00:33:47,630 --> 00:33:49,799 Bob Simon: Have you always talked so fast? 454 00:33:49,799 --> 00:33:53,919 Mandy Patinkin: Yes. And I was horrified. I saw an interview that I did with someone, 455 00:33:53,919 --> 00:33:59,210 and I was horrified by it. And I said to my wife, "This is unbearable how I talk." 456 00:33:59,210 --> 00:34:01,150 Bob Simon: It's unbearable for me, it's hard... 457 00:34:01,150 --> 00:34:02,740 Mandy Patinkin: I'm sorry, I'll shut up. 458 00:34:02,740 --> 00:34:06,690 Bob Simon: No. It's not a question of shutting up. I mean, you go for two minutes without 459 00:34:06,690 --> 00:34:09,369 taking a breath. It's very hard to pop in a question. 460 00:34:09,369 --> 00:34:14,700 Mandy Patinkin: I guess the reason is there's various things that have popped up that I 461 00:34:14,700 --> 00:34:17,540 really want to say before I check out. If I can leave something behind. 462 00:34:17,540 --> 00:34:23,950 The next time we met, at his rustic retreat in upstate New York, he told us he'd already 463 00:34:23,950 --> 00:34:29,530 cleaned the house and taken a 10-mile bike ride to burn off some excess energy. He also 464 00:34:29,530 --> 00:34:33,570 went through a ritual he conducts before big interviews and performances. 465 00:34:33,570 --> 00:34:40,050 Mandy Patinkin: I recite every name of every person that I've known who's passed on. And 466 00:34:40,050 --> 00:34:46,960 I do that because there was a line in the libretto of "Carousel." And the line is: "As 467 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:53,820 long as there's one person on Earth who remembers you, it isn't over." And I, it's a game I 468 00:34:53,820 --> 00:34:54,919 play that gives me... 469 00:34:54,919 --> 00:34:56,139 Bob Simon: It's not a game, it's very serious. 470 00:34:56,139 --> 00:35:03,020 Mandy Patinkin: It is a game, the whole ball of wax is a game -- your life, my life, politics, 471 00:35:03,020 --> 00:35:05,119 economy, hunger... 472 00:35:05,119 --> 00:35:07,349 Bob Simon: By definition a game has winners and losers. 473 00:35:07,349 --> 00:35:13,369 Mandy Patinkin: Yes, it does. I think we all lose in the end because we don't get to stay 474 00:35:13,369 --> 00:35:21,310 here forever. That is a part of the game at this point, I think, is a profound flaw. 475 00:35:21,310 --> 00:35:27,810 Despite roles in a handful of films, including "Ragtime," he never became a leading man, 476 00:35:27,810 --> 00:35:33,480 partly because of two epic mistakes, career blunders that he rarely discusses in public. 477 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,320 Bob Simon: You actually think I'm not going to ask you what those mistakes were? 478 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,420 Mandy Patinkin: That's fine, I'll tell you what they were. One was having said yes to 479 00:35:41,420 --> 00:35:47,550 do the movie "Heartburn" with Mike Nichols and Meryl Streep when I knew it wasn't right 480 00:35:47,550 --> 00:35:51,760 for me. That how could I turn down Mike and Meryl? And I wanted to be a movie star, and 481 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,250 I wanted to be powerful, and I wanted to be more things than I was at that time. And I 482 00:35:56,250 --> 00:35:58,210 didn't like the piece. 483 00:35:58,210 --> 00:36:03,599 And it showed. Director Mike Nichols fired him after one day and replaced him with Jack 484 00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:03,980 Nicholson. 485 00:36:03,980 --> 00:36:06,280 [Jack Nicholson: I'm Mark Foreman.] 486 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,230 After that, his leading roles were mostly on television. 487 00:36:09,230 --> 00:36:10,589 [Mandy Patinkin: Come on!] 488 00:36:10,589 --> 00:36:13,020 He won an Emmy playing a doctor in "Chicago Hope." 489 00:36:13,020 --> 00:36:14,839 [Mandy Patinkin: I'm Jason Gideon.] 490 00:36:14,839 --> 00:36:22,540 Then starred as an FBI profiler in "Criminal Minds." But in an infamous real-life episode, 491 00:36:22,540 --> 00:36:28,089 Mandy abruptly quit that show, saying he objected to the content, leaving his cast mates, crew 492 00:36:28,089 --> 00:36:30,910 and CBS, high and dry. 493 00:36:30,910 --> 00:36:35,990 Mandy Patinkin: Wasn't their mistake. It was mine. I chose it because I was greedy. I wanted 494 00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:41,280 more money. I was always worried about money. And I was always worried that I needed more 495 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,510 money and I needed to be more famous to get more money, and this, and that, and everything. 496 00:36:45,510 --> 00:36:50,750 When the fact of the matter is, which my wife always says to me, we have never wanted. She 497 00:36:50,750 --> 00:36:55,310 said, "Where do you get this fear from?" I don't know. Maybe it's genetic, maybe it's 498 00:36:55,310 --> 00:36:57,630 nonsense. But it's greed. 499 00:36:57,630 --> 00:37:04,690 He thought he'd never work in television again. For years, his reputation as an obsessive, 500 00:37:04,690 --> 00:37:06,700 hard-to-handle actor preceded him. 501 00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:11,380 Bob Simon: You have such a clear vision of what you're doing. Is it ever painful for 502 00:37:11,380 --> 00:37:13,369 you to take instruction from a director? 503 00:37:13,369 --> 00:37:19,420 Mandy Patinkin: It used to be, and I wouldn't do it for years, and I was ashamed of myself. 504 00:37:19,420 --> 00:37:23,260 And I apologize. I've apologized in print, I apologize here because... 505 00:37:23,260 --> 00:37:26,290 Bob Simon: But I'm sure sometimes you were right and they were wrong. 506 00:37:26,290 --> 00:37:30,630 Mandy Patinkin: Who cares? Who cares if I was right and they were wrong? You're a person, 507 00:37:30,630 --> 00:37:35,000 you're directing me, you're talking to me. Be a human being, listen to you. Is it cancer? 508 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:40,089 Is it world peace? No, it's a movie, it's a TV show. Try! 509 00:37:40,089 --> 00:37:45,810 He can be hard on himself, tracing some of that anger back to the loss of his father 510 00:37:45,810 --> 00:37:47,160 when Mandy was 18. 511 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,130 Mandy Patinkin: I remember he dreamed of things, "I'm going to go do this, I'm going to go 512 00:37:51,130 --> 00:37:55,869 do that when the kids are older," and then he died from pancreatic cancer and he didn't 513 00:37:55,869 --> 00:38:03,740 do it. And I remember that 18-year-old kid said, "I'm not going to wait." And I became 514 00:38:03,740 --> 00:38:08,910 impatient for anything I dreamed of, I wanted it done by sundown. 515 00:38:08,910 --> 00:38:12,070 And he wanted to remember every moment of every day. 516 00:38:12,070 --> 00:38:17,099 Mandy Patinkin: This is recreating my father's junkyard, the Scrap Corporation People's Iron 517 00:38:17,099 --> 00:38:21,180 and Metal Company was the name of it. It was on the South Side of Chicago at Loomis and 518 00:38:21,180 --> 00:38:21,670 Hoyne. 519 00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:28,089 He showed us how he's documented his life with an electric train set. He spent decades 520 00:38:28,089 --> 00:38:31,750 building this world. It takes him back more than 50 years. 521 00:38:31,750 --> 00:38:36,839 Mandy Patinkin: In many ways they saved my childhood. I lived under that train table 522 00:38:36,839 --> 00:38:39,380 and it was like a little tree house. Like a refuge to me. 523 00:38:39,380 --> 00:38:39,970 Bob Simon: Mandy's retreat. 524 00:38:39,970 --> 00:38:43,589 Mandy Patinkin: Yeah. Those trains right up there on that shelf, those are the trains 525 00:38:43,589 --> 00:38:46,760 my father bought me when I was eight years old. Those are the first trains and every 526 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:47,700 one of them works perfectly. 527 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:53,109 Mandy Patinkin: This is my ma. She was a great cook, so we named a diner after her. 528 00:38:53,109 --> 00:38:58,160 Every piece has a story. And we found ourselves still shooting late that night. 529 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:03,630 Mandy Patinkin: Guys? Somebody come over here with us. This is a real fun thing! 530 00:39:03,630 --> 00:39:06,310 By then, Mandy had talked us under the table. 531 00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:09,109 Mandy Patinkin: I like the trolley because it doesn't break down. 532 00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:11,630 Bob Simon: There it is. There it is. It is great! 533 00:39:11,630 --> 00:39:16,910 Kathryn Patinkin: I think one of the best-kept secrets about my husband is how damn funny 534 00:39:16,910 --> 00:39:17,910 he is. 535 00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:23,950 Mandy's wife of 34 years and the mother of his two sons is actress Kathryn Grody. She 536 00:39:23,950 --> 00:39:29,650 says what attracted her was his authenticity, even though he could put some people off. 537 00:39:29,650 --> 00:39:34,770 Kathryn Patinkin: He doesn't know the intensity that he comes off as. He can certainly be 538 00:39:34,770 --> 00:39:40,020 obnoxious. And he has three members of his family that have no problem in saying, "Dad, 539 00:39:40,020 --> 00:39:41,700 that was obnoxious." 540 00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:43,849 Bob Simon: So the family is not scared of him? 541 00:39:43,849 --> 00:39:48,890 Kathryn Patinkin: Well, not anymore. I mean I would, you know, it's an interesting, the 542 00:39:48,890 --> 00:39:53,200 nature, nurture thing. I think my youngest son was never, ever afraid of this guy, ever. 543 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,240 Mandy Patinkin: He taught my older one and my wife more about how to handle me. Before 544 00:39:57,240 --> 00:40:00,740 I learned to handle my moods. And I'd had mood struggles. 545 00:40:00,740 --> 00:40:08,540 "Homeland" has turned out to be an antidote to those struggles resurrecting his career, 546 00:40:08,540 --> 00:40:15,950 and giving him something else, the role of the quiet, wise Saul Berenson, which he says 547 00:40:15,950 --> 00:40:18,960 is not so much a stretch, as an aspiration. 548 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:28,150 Bob Simon: Saul comes across as very calm, almost avuncular. This about as far as you 549 00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:30,040 can get from Mandy Patinkin. 550 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:39,720 Mandy Patinkin: Mandy is not calm. So that's acting. I'm acting. And, and I love playing 551 00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:46,329 someone calm. I wish I'd had that role earlier on in life. There's a lot of Saul I like to 552 00:40:46,329 --> 00:40:47,510 take with me in my life. 553 00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:50,170 Bob Simon: What would you like to take with you? 554 00:40:50,170 --> 00:40:55,240 Mandy Patinkin: His quiet, his ability to truly, legitimately listen. His lack of a 555 00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:58,440 need to speak first, to get his ideas out. 556 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,760 Bob Simon: Has this really affected you? 557 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:01,609 Mandy Patinkin: Not enough. 558 00:41:01,609 --> 00:41:06,910 [Mandy Patinkin and Taylor Mac: Sometimes I think we're on the right track...] 559 00:41:06,910 --> 00:41:11,800 When he finishes playing Saul, he'll go back to being Mandy, diving into an experimental 560 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:17,930 musical with his longtime pianist Paul ford and actor Taylor Mac. He told us his purpose 561 00:41:17,930 --> 00:41:24,270 in life can be summed up in a single word: "connect." Singing and performing have always 562 00:41:24,270 --> 00:41:27,579 been his surest means of doing that. 563 00:41:27,579 --> 00:41:37,119 [Mandy Patinkin and Taylor Mac: Didn't mean to make you cry. If I'm not back tomorrow, 564 00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:37,240 carry on, carry on, as if nothing really matters.] 565 00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:43,280 Mandy Patinkin: Somebody just offered me a part the other day, the older guy in a film. 566 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:52,060 And I remember saying to the guy, "I'm so sad that I'm old enough to play this part, 567 00:41:52,060 --> 00:42:00,609 and I'm so grateful that I am." Because, you know, all that clich??d things, you really 568 00:42:00,609 --> 00:42:06,030 do learn something if you get the luck of being able to hang around. Even if it's a 569 00:42:06,030 --> 00:42:09,030 rough ride, you learn.