Sunday morning, I'm driving home.
I drive up,
and there's ten people standing in my front lawn.
You know?
It was a lot of my celebrity friends from Scientology.
You know, it was Anne Archer and Terry Jastrow,
and Mark Isham and his wife all showed up.
And they were there to handle me.
They were really upset. And I'm going, "Guys,
"I understand you're upset, I understand you're angry,
but there's abuse going on within the church".
And I thought, "You should know about this,
"that you would be outraged
by some of these things that I discovered".
But no, they were outraged that I'd criticized the church.
I am the writer of the textbooks of Scientology.
The aim and goal is to put man in a mental condition,
where he him can solve his own problems.
Without any Scientology organization,
things are not gonna change on this planet.
After years of slowly questioning Scientology...
Leah Remini and her very public break with Scientology.
Stop lying to people that they hold
their eternity in their hands.
Stop telling parents that it doesn't matter
what you do this lifetime other than Scientology.
If your religion is so amazing,
and doing all these amazing things for the world,
then it should stand up to some questioning.
I would repeat this line,
"I want to die. I want to die".
That was my first idea of, "I want to end my own life".
You gave me up
at 13 years old.
How could you think that this was okay for me?
These people are doing extreme things,
and they need to be held accountable.
For us to do more of this,
we wanted to do something that could help these people.
We need to do more
than simply document stuff.
You got this.
People will continue to speak.
People will continue to fight.
I could go on forever about Celebrity Centre,
but really, if I just have to say
in layman's terms what it is for me,
is it's like having a best friend
for life.
It's like the best friend who's always home,
the best friend who doesn't have a problem,
the best friend who's always there for you regardless.
And that's what CC has been for me and my family,
is a pure friend.
It's hard to dispute that from the very earliest times,
Hubbard was almost obsessed
with getting celebrities into Scientology.
Project Celebrity is an article that appeared
in one of the 1955 editions of "Ability Magazine".
The purpose of recruiting celebrities
was to give legitimacy to Scientology,
and to popularize the subject,
and hopefully get other people interested
because celebrities were interested.
The Celebrity Centre was created
with the idea that if you had some facility
or some operation that was focused on celebrities,
then you would get more of 'em involved.
And there was policy that talks about
getting celebrities into Scientology.
- Hi, there. - Hi.
Nice to meet you.
- Good to meet you. - Thank you.
I'm Karen Schless Presley,
and I was a celebrity recruiter
and commanding officer of the Celebrity Centre network
for the Church of Scientology.
When we would recruit celebrities in,
we were really looking for people
who could become mouthpieces for Scientology.
That's the bottom line.
Scientology was looking for celebrities
to endorse Scientology.
You could read "What is Scientology?"
It's a book about that thick, that answers every question
you could possibly think of, positive or negative.
We were all about building social capital.
We needed celebrities to recruit other celebrities
- for that social capital. - From your time there,
who was brought in by other celebrities?
Okay, for example, Kirstie Alley.
Anne Archer brought Terry Jastrow in.
And, of course, Mimi Rogers brought in Tom Cruise.
You know, David Miscavige, at that time,
was all over Tom Cruise's advancement in Scientology.
Now with the biggest celebrity icon
that Scientology has ever had,
management poured millions of dollars
into the Celebrity Centre in Los Angeles to overhaul it.
And that started with Tom?
The whole goal was to make Scientology look beautiful
to the hopeful A-list celebs
that would be coming in
because of Tom Cruise's recruitment efforts.
The idea was, make Celebrity Centre look so successful
that anybody who walked in the door
would be convinced, "This is a great place to be".
Now, another thing to point out is
there were separate classrooms
- for A-list celebrities... - Right.
Even categories of celebrities.
Oh, I know.
Until I gave a $1 million donation
was I allowed to be actually
in an area of the church
when Tom actually walked in the building...
- Wow. - But then, after I gave
my million dollars, I was allowed to finish my lunch
and not have to get up,
and I was really excited about that.
It's very different from being treated
as a celebrity in the real world.
You know, in the real world,
George Clooney gets treated nice.
This is a different kind of nice.
Scientologists believe,
and they're shown this in their events,
that some of the celebrities in Scientology
are responsible for big changes
on this planet and for mankind.
These are the times, now, people, okay?
These are the times we will all remember.
Were you there?
What did you do?
They believe, in a way, that these celebrities are,
you know, deities, in some way.
I have letters of commendations
from David Miscavige himself,
saying what an amazing Scientologist I am...
From Tom Cruise...
To Jenna Elfman.
"You're the best Scientologist.
Thank you for contributing to mankind".
But as soon as Leah starts talking,
you go from being a celebrated member
to an enemy overnight.
So, what were some of the tactics,
other tactics, that celebrity centres
were demanded to do?
If you are a celebrity recruiter,
and you're called a field staff member, an FSM,
there is a commission involved.
Bringing in a new person
who does, like, the appetizer courses of Scientology,
those are very inexpensive.
$50 here, $100 there.
But the goal is to take your recruit
and move them to more advanced services
into Scientology.
And we were motivated by that 10% commission,
which really adds up.
So, there's an incentive to just civilian Scientologists,
but especially celebrity Scientologists,
who know people who have
millions and millions of dollars,
who, you know, it would behoove them
to recruit regularly.
Even if you just got one person in...
- Right. - Then you're set.
Now you're looking at the major motivation.
It was really about money, because, let's face it,
the celebrities were the cash cows,
and for one celebrity to bring in another celebrity
guaranteed financial success.
Tom Cruise specifically would have meetings,
and call all of us actors in, and say,
"We need lists from you, who you're bringing to
the Gala at Celebrity Centre".
And it's very coordinated.
They're befriending them, because they want to appear
as though they're the only ones in their life
that could offer them real help...
- Yeah. - And that is purposeful.
And I've done it. I've done it myself.
If you're not bringing people in,
they see that as a problem.
Like, I was asked many times over the years,
"Why haven't you gotten Kevin James in?
"Like, what are you doing on the set?
"Why is he not reaching to you?
"Why is he not confiding in you?
"Why are you not telling him
Scientology can help you with that?"
'Cause I was like, "'Cause he's Catholic".
But it was a constant "What are you doing?
You're doing something to not set a good example to him".
Who do we see right now in the news
promoting Scientology? No one.
- So what does that say? - That Scientology doesn't work.
But what you do have is celebrities now
defending religious freedom.
That's what they're standing behind.
And that's what I'm trying to get across,
is that people
who are celebrities in this town,
the movers and shakers, not even actors.
I'm talking about all forms of art.
They should beware of celebrities
- of Scientology. - Yes.
When you're a celebrity Scientologist,
you're asked, "Go promote us.
Go promote our good works. Defend us,"
and they push you out there.
But as soon as you go, "Hey, I'm out,
and I'm gonna say it publicly,"
you're everything bad about the world, all of a sudden.
It's sort of poetic justice
that when a celebrity leaves Scientology,
the ability that they have to reach a wide audience
is suddenly turned around,
and Scientology feels the brunt of
that celebrity being turned against them.
And one of the first celebrities to leave
was Paul Haggis.
- So, Paul Haggis. - Paul Haggis.
What did you think about when Paul left?
- What did you think? - I was so happy.
- Were you shocked though? - I was shocked.
Yeah.
There have been a lot of people
who have left Scientology,
and very few who had been willing to...
- Speak out. Right. - Speak out
and put their name out there.
And, of course, you know, he wrote
that very lengthy letter that got published.
I mean, that was the first of its kind.
When he was 30-something, he produced "Thirtysomething".
Since then, he's written more than 30-something
groundbreaking films and television shows.
I wrote the last two Best Pictures.
And you're asking me if that's a good thing.
Yeah, it's a really good thing.
Because of the weight
of Paul's personal accomplishments,
he was the spark of
exposing the abuses of Scientology.
How are you?
- Good to see... - How are you?
- Good to see you. - Good to see you.
How are you, darling? Good to see you.
I'm Paul Haggis, and I became a Scientologist
when I was very young,
and I broke with them in 2009.
And I was speaking out against them,
and they...
They weren't happy with that.
Scientology does appeal
to a certain kind of people, and loners,
people who didn't get a college education, like myself,
people that didn't study philosophy or psychology,
but especially those who were kind of
predisposed to be loners, are a good target for them,
because every loner secretly wants to be part of a group.
But if you're gonna be part of a group,
it should be one that everyone reviles.
That's perfect for me. That was perfect for me.
Yes, exactly.
I was like, "Oh, everyone hates this? Oh, I'm in".
Right, Right. "That's for me". Yeah.
Yeah, that's good. So that didn't bother me at all.
You know, when I got into Scientology,
it was just a bunch of young filmmakers
trying to break into filmmaking,
and it was a great group of people.
It was all just us struggling
to try and make our way in Hollywood.
I always said, "People don't understand it. So what?
"I'm getting something out of it.
"I'm interested.
I'm discovering things about myself".
And anytime someone's gonna sit there
and ask you about yourself,
no matter what questions they ask,
you're gonna learn something about yourself.
And so that's a powerful part of it,
just sitting there and being asked to look inside
and come up with solutions to your problems.
I got along better with my wife.
I got along better with my friends at work.
You know, there's all these basic principles
that get you in in the beginning,
- and so it's hard to attack... - Yeah.
Everything. But I always say,
I don't want to even say that out loud,
because I never wanna give a person the idea
that there's something there to be looked at,
because I know, ultimately,
what's in it for them, long-term.
Right. And the way they direct you
is sort of batshit crazy,
but you don't know that at the time.
There are concepts
that just don't quite make as much sense,
but by then,
you're completely indoctrinated.
You've been in for a while,
and your friends are all Scientologists.
Usually your relationships are largely Scientologists.
And they aren't questioning it,
so why should you?
The further you go and the more indoctrinated
you become in Scientology,
the more you believe that anything wrong with it
- is your fault... - Yes.
Because you failed in some way
- to be a good Scientologist. - It's a real trap.
And we trap ourselves, which is the fascinating thing.
I was a pretty good Scientologist
for the first ten years or so,
through my 20s into my early 30s.
And I did a lot of courses,
and I did all of the auditing, every single bit.
I went from the bottom to the top of the Bridge.
I went to, at the time, OT Seven.
The OT materials just didn't make any sense to me.
I didn't get the gains they said I would get,
but didn't mean I didn't try.
I applied myself as best I could.
I looked inward.
I tried to do everything I could,
because I wanted to be a better person.
I wanted to learn. I wanted to...
and even if it didn't make sense to me,
I said, "Okay, well, some things don't make sense.
"I mean, the subconscious is a strange thing.
"And okay, perhaps this is an allegory.
"Perhaps it's not. I don't know.
But I'll try it. What the hell".
I'd already paid for it.
They make you pay for it in big chunks.
I would've paid $1/4 million,
or something like that, over the time.
And I thought, "I'll try it. It might work".
Well, it didn't, you know.
It was just nonsense for most of it.
The beginning, good. After that, nonsense.
That's when I realized this just wasn't for me.
It was interesting. After I did the OT Levels,
I went to the head of Celebrity Centre.
I sat down, and I said, "I'm not a Scientologist.
"I like the self-help stuff, but I'm not a Scientologist,
so I think I have to resign". She said, "What do you mean?
I said, "Well, I don't believe what you believe".
She said, "Paul, there are all kinds of Jews.
"There are all kinds of Christians.
"Did we ever ask you to believe anything?
What's the first thing you read in Scientology?"
And the first thing I read, which hooked me,
was "If it's true for you, it's true for you".
"Use what you wanna use, don't what you want,
and you can still be a Scientologist".
And I went, "Oh, okay".
And that's how I started to justify things.
They're an incredibly orthodox religion,
but they pretend it's not.
They give you the impression
that it's about free thought and about questioning.
It's not at all about any of those things.
They just can say it,
so they pretend that they mean it,
so that they can,
I guess, pretend to themselves.
And you do a lot of pretending to yourself.
You do a lot of that.
I stayed in, but I just usually applied the things that I...
which was, you know, good, the simple self-help stuff.
And I looked around. I said, "Listen,
"it's not a harmful group. It's not hurting anybody.
There's no reason I should resign".
Until I realized it was hurting people,
that it is destructive.
What had happened is,
there was this proposition in California
called Proposition 8,
which had come out and said
that it wanted to make gay marriage illegal,
because the Supreme Court of California
had granted the rights for gays to be married,
which I thought was a great thing.
So, my daughter, Lauren,
wrote me and said, "Have you seen this?"
And it was just a small article
about how Scientology,
or one of the Churches of Scientology,
had joined the list of churches
who were supporting Proposition 8.
And I went, "Whoa".
I mean, of course, it was personal,
because I have two daughters who are gay.
That would've upset me if my daughters were gay
or if my daughters weren't gay.
When I found out about this,
I called up Tommy Davis,
who was the spokesperson for the church at the time,
after Mike left.
And I said, "Tommy, what the hell's this?
"The church has come out
"as a public supporter of this proposition.
"So now you have to make a public statement,
"saying you are in support of gay marriage.
Why don't you actually make a statement?"
And he said, "Oh, yeah, yeah, we'll look into that".
Months go by, and I keep bugging him.
"Oh, yeah, we're looking into it".
And so I'm starting to get really skeptical at this point.
And so, I finally nail him on it,
and he said, "Paul, here's the thing.
"This came up in one website. It was only one thing,
"and so we aren't gonna say anything,
"because it'll just draw attention to us.
And nobody noticed, so it'll go away".
I said, "Tommy, I noticed,
and that's enough".
The church will tell you
that it embraces all people,
that they do not discriminate,
that they love gay people, and there are many gay members.
It's a complete lie.
This is where we get to the real issue of,
is Scientology homophobic or not?
- Yeah. - Absolutely is.
Absolutely, it is. You're right.
But it's not publicly stated to be...
- That's correct. - The case.
If you just read Hubbard's books,
you'll see what he thinks about homosexuality.
Scientology's view of homosexuality
is two-faced.
On one hand, they present to the world
that they are open and tolerant,
but within the writings of Scientology,
homosexuality is viewed as an aberration.
L. Ron Hubbard developed a tone scale,
which is an artificial listing of emotions
that goes from, you know,
death to exhilaration.
Homosexuality is
pegged as 1.1
on that arbitrary tone scale.
1.1 is considered to be
the most dangerous tone level in society.
It is considered to be
a very bad state to be in.
In fact, Hubbard said that society would be better off
if all of those people were corralled up
and put on an island somewhere away from the rest of society,
so that they didn't backstab, influence,
and otherwise seek to destroy all the good people.
I'd have more respect for them if they said,
- "We believe"... - Yeah.
"That people who are gay
are aberrated," which means fucked up...
- That's what Hubbard says. - "And we can fix you
through our Scientology auditing".
If they actually said it aloud without at the same time saying,
"Oh, that's... no, we don't really do that".
I mean, both sides of the mouth, they speak constantly.
I've been a Scientologist since 1999,
and I've never come across any piece of information
that remotely is... negative
or derogatory in any way towards the LGBT community.
Every Scientologist has read the same books,
and they are mandatory books.
You can't move up in Scientology if you don't read
"Dianetics," "Science of Survival,"
and very specific books.
So for any celebrity Scientologist to say,
"We have no stance on homosexuality,"
is an actual liar.
So, for a church that talks about
how much people have to take responsibility,
- they take none. - They take zero.
At that time, I was working on a movie,
researching a film that I was writing,
called "The Next Three Days".
And something pops up on my screen.
These related videos.
"You might be interested in this".
And there's an interview with Tommy Davis.
We consider family to be a building block
of any society,
so anything that characterizes disconnection,
or this kinda thing, it's just not true.
There isn't any such policy in the church
that's dictating who people should
or should not be in communication with, you know.
It just doesn't happen.
Tommy outright lies,
and says that... about the policy of disconnection.
Says, "No, that doesn't exist".
But just two years before, my wife had been told
she had to disconnect from her parents.
It's kinda crazy.
I mean, why would he lie like that? Straight lie.
Because one of the things LRH says is,
"Never lie in PR".
So I went, "Hmm, I wonder what else he's lying about,"
and for the first time, I started to look.
Protesters say there is a darker side to Scientology.
They call it "a corrupt organization
"that controls its members, breaks up families,
and harasses its critics".
New websites critical of Scientology
are popping up all over the internet.
Members of the group called Anonymous
claim the church extorts money from its members
and suppresses free speech.
There were an awful lot of people
who had an incredible amount of pain
inflicted on their lives by the Church of Scientology.
He is no religious leader.
You cannot call yourself a religious leader,
as you beat people, as you confine people,
as you rip apart families.
Scientology is destructive.
It's very, very dangerous for your spiritual,
psychological, mental, emotional health.
And I went, "How could this be true?
"How could this be happening
within this organization that I support?"
It came to a point that I went,
"I can't stay in this organization any longer.
"If even 10% of this is true,
I can't stay here".
And I realized, "I have to resign,
"and I have to speak out.
There's just no option".
That's when I decided. I said, "That's it".
So I then wrote my letter of resignation.
And I'm a writer. It was a long
letter of resignation.
- Well written. - It was very good.
- Yes. - Thank you.
I wanted them to know what I had found out,
and why I was resigning,
but I kept it secret from my wife, Deborah,
because she was getting gains out of Scientology
for the first time.
I was pretty sure
that she wouldn't leave,
that she would stay in Scientology and choose that,
because...
that's what most of them do.
So, I decided on 25 friends within the church
who I was going to send this to,
including Tommy, but, you know,
people that I figured deserved to know,
and had them in my outbox, ready to go,
ready, so I could just press "send".
And at that point, I went down, and I said, "Deborah,
I'm about to resign from the Church of Scientology".
And she said, "Oh, my God, this is craziness".
I said, "Yeah, I understand, but here's why".
And she said, "Well, let me read the letter".
So I did, and she said, "Well, if this is true,
I'll resign with you, of course".
I'm like, "Wow".
Very grateful.
I should've known.
Well, she's a real independent thinker.
She's a terrific woman.
And so I should've known
that she'd stand up with me.
So I pressed "send" and sent 25 emails out.
Sunday morning, I'm driving home.
Haven't heard anything. Interesting.
And I drive up past my house,
and there's ten people standing in my front lawn.
And it was a lot of my celebrity friends
from Scientology and a couple of people from the church.
Anne Archer and Terry Jastrow
and Mark Isham and his wife,
and a lot of my friends all showed up.
And I said, "What's up, guys?"
And they were really upset.
"Paul, you sent this letter". I said, "Yeah, I did,
"because I thought you'd find what I wrote very disturbing,
what I found out".
And they did find it very disturbing.
They found it disturbing that I would write the letter.
They kept saying, "Well, Paul,
you can handle this inside the church".
And I said, "Wait, guys,
"you've read the letter. I've resigned.
"This is now your church.
"So you're absolutely right. These things should be handled,
and you guys should do something about it".
"Oh, we'll look at that, but, you know,
"we'll ask our ethics officer,
we'll ask David Miscavige, we'll ask somebody else".
I said, "Well, those are the guys
"that are perpetrating the crimes.
"Perhaps those aren't the people you should be asking.
Why don't you look for yourself?"
None of them wanted to do so.
When I sent my letter, I figured
any of my friends who read this would look at that and go...
- "I know Paul"... - "Wow".
"I know Paul's a good guy,
and if he's saying this shit is going on"...
- "I better look into it". - Exactly.
That's what I thought they would do.
- So did I. - I really... I was naive.
And wasn't that part heartbreaking to you?
Oh, yeah.
I didn't send it to the press.
I sent it to 25 of my best
and closest friends within the church,
because I thought, "You should know about this,
"that you would be outraged
by some of these things that I discovered".
After an hour or two, they got to the point,
and the point was, "Paul, you can resign.
"We're okay if you resign.
"But you can't send a letter like this.
What you need to do is resign quietly".
I go, "I don't do that".
- Right. - "That's not me," you know?
- "Sorry". - Right. "I wouldn't be Paul".
"That's not my schtick".
"I mean, I haven't sent it to the press,
"but you guys should do something quickly,
"because this letter will leak,
and it'll get out".
They said, "Would you be willing to talk to Tommy Davis?"
So, Tommy Calls.
He says, "Do you mind if I bring some people
"and some things that'll absolutely disprove
everything in your letter?"
I said, "I would kill for that. Please do".
So, they show up,
and it's senior members of the church,
who you know very well.
And so we sat in there for a few hours,
in which they had these things they thought...
they brought information on people
that they thought I'd been talking to.
I go, "Guys, I didn't talk to any of those people".
"Who did you talk to?" "I'm not telling you,
"because I spoke in confidence.
"It's not the point who I talked to.
"The point is, is any of this true?
"Uh, you know, maybe, actually admit to some of this stuff.
"Maybe go, 'Jesus, yes, we've made mistakes,
"'and we're sorry, but we've corrected them now'.
"Admit to something you've done,
"and then people will go, 'It's okay, ' you know.
"'Okay, we get it. Everybody makes mistakes'".
But they can't do that.
And at some point, we're talking about
the allegations of abuse
with David Miscavige's hit people,
and they're denying it outright.
And I said, "Guys, let me put it this way".
At that time, I was researching a movie
about Martin Luther King Jr.,
and I was about to say, you know, "Was a human being
and had personal flaws".
When I got to, "Even Martin Luther King had,"
at that point, two of them leapt to their feet
and said, "How dare you?
"How dare you compare a great man
like David Miscavige to Martin Luther King?"
- Paul... - Oh, yeah. And I went...
- Paul... - You see this face?
- Paul... - That was my face at the time.
- You're lying, Paul Haggis! - Oh, I'm not. I'm not.
- No, I'm not. No, I'm not. - I don't believe that.
And I go, "I think we can finish this now.
"I think we're over. Are you guys good with everything?
"Any more questions you wanna ask me?
"'Cause I don't think we're gonna come
to an agreement here, but thanks".
So, senior members of the church,
they show me the policies on suppressive people...
- Kay. - And say, "Paul"...
and they have the ones highlighted,
like six of them, highlighted, things I've done.
And they said, "Well, read this".
I said, "Yeah, I've done all those things".
And they said, "You know, you can be declared".
"No, I'm fully aware I could be declared".
And they said, "Well, we don't wanna declare you".
I said, "Well, that's up to you, isn't it?" You know.
And they said, "Well, as long as you don't do anything else,
you know, we're not gonna publicly declare you".
I said, "Do what you like".
When you leave Scientology, if you stay quiet
and don't tell anybody that you've actually left,
you probably can live a life
unmolested by Scientology.
If you, however, choose to speak out,
you then become a public enemy of Scientology.
You will be declared a suppressive person.
Any Scientologist in good standing
will be required to disconnect from you.
And you will become the target of
the Scientology smear campaign.
It's been a few months since I sent my letter of resignation,
and it hasn't gotten out,
so Marty Rathbun asks me
if he can print it.
Marty Rathbun says, "I have a blog.
Can I publish your letter of resignation?"
"Why not? Okay. I'm not hiding from it".
So I said, "Sure, Marty, go ahead and publish it".
So, I check the internet on Saturday.
Like, two minor blogs have this.
I go, "Thank God," you know. "Thank God".
Right, 'cause you pulled a trigger,
but at the same time, you're like,
you knew the shit storm that was gonna...
I knew it was coming,
so I wasn't looking forward to it, but, you know, so...
Monday morning, I wake up,
and, you know, there's a Google Alert on Paul Haggis.
600 newspapers around the world
had picked up this letter of resignation.
Now to the public spotlight
shining on the world of Scientology.
One of the group's acclaimed members
is now leaving that church.
This just days after former top ranking members
accused the group's leader of some violent behavior.
People stopped, you know, obviously, talking to me,
but still, I hadn't been declared.
A few months went by,
and Lawrence Wright reached out to me.
At that point, I had a decision.
"Do I do this or not?"
And I realized if I do this,
if I'm actually gonna do this,
I have to come completely clean.
And so, for the next year,
he literally spent time talking to me,
talking to my friends, talking to everybody I knew.
Talking to Scientologists.
He went around. He did an amazing job.
And they all... everyone spoke to him.
When you learn certain things,
it really is just a responsibility you have
to tell the truth.
It's not really a choice.
I felt that I had to speak out,
and whatever happened happened.
And I knew there'd be a big fallout,
and there was.
Paul was declared a suppressive
after "The New Yorker" article came out,
because speaking publicly against Scientology
is tantamount to a mortal sin.
I knew that my life would change.
I knew all Scientologists would stay a mile away from me.
I knew I would lose any friend I ever had
within the church, and some of these people
I'd worked with forever, I'd loved,
people that, you know, had, you know, had worked with me
and won Emmys because of the good work they did.
But if they spoke to me, even said hi in a supermarket,
they would have to then go report that
to the ethics officer and be interrogated.
"What did he say? What did he look like?"
Exactly. Like, "How did you respond?
Did you smile?" Whatever, you know.
So, I'm at a picnic, and I see Leah,
and I go, "Oh, okay". I turn and walk the other way,
because I don't wanna make her feel uncomfortable.
And then she went and said, "Paul".
I said, "Hey". She said, "Why are you acting so weird?"
And I said, "Well, I didn't wanna make you
- feel uncomfortable, Leah". - That's so Leah.
She said, "No, Paul, you were my friend.
You will always be my friend". I don't care what?
And I went, "Oh, well, thank you".
She was the only one who did that,
and you were still in the church at the time.
That meant a lot to me. It meant a lot.
Thank you.
I think that Paul is being gracious,
you know, in saying,
"Thank you for being his friend".
But, you know, when I look back on it,
I'm thinking, "You were a coward".
That's what I'm thinking about myself.
"You were a coward". I didn't do the right thing.
Paul was saying, "This is a toxic
"and dangerous, bigoted,
"racist organization
that's doing horrible things to people,"
and I'm not listening.
I was fighting internally,
"Why are we letting this man go?"
But I actually didn't stand by his side.
I didn't...
I didn't.
You know, it took me years to leave after that,
and I can't say that I was courageous.
Scientology handles celebrities
that leave Scientology
the same way they handle everybody else.
They have their very public way of doing it,
by taking any website that has your name, my name,
and then they post things or direct you to
a Scientology hit site.
Yes, they try to destroy your career.
Yes, they try to ruin you in any way they can.
And they're very active.
And they're good at it.
It's not just these websites,
the WhoIsPaulHaggis.com, or nonsense websites,
like "Who is Leah Remini" or "Who is Mike Rinder".
These are vicious and horrible, but you can see through them.
They attack us in many other ways.
They are vicious, vindictive people.
Like, when you see your sister doing
one of those POW style videos...
It was very sad.
Paul had two movies that did well
back to back, accidentally.
Everything he did after that
on his own failed.
One of the things I regret most
is actually getting my sister into Scientology.
I loved my sister. She just passed away last year.
- Sorry. - Cancer.
I mean, it was really hard watching that.
I loved my sister very much.
What I think is crazy is this idea that
they called us bigots.
Oh, yes, you've been accused of being a bigot.
Because she's saying negative things.
Because she's a bigot.
When you decide to blanket statement
that Scientology is evil, you are my enemy.
For them to go out publicly, lying,
I'm just shocked by it.
- So you're still hurt... - I'm still hurt.
- By what they say about you? - Yes.
- Why? - I'm shocked,
because they know we're telling the truth.
That still hurts.
Whether you're a celebrity or not,
something has to go off in your mind
where you go, "This isn't right.
"I'm justifying horrible behavior
in myself and in others".
And celebrities have access
to information.
There is no excuse now.
They're in a prison of their own mind
to not want to know, and if they do know,
Scientology has a self-protecting mechanism
that doesn't allow people to look.
You're a Scientologist? Do you get upset
when people put all these negative,
you know, connotations towards the religion?
No, because no one ever says anything that makes any sense...
And no one ever says
anything that's true.
They can't even have a conversation.
They'll say, "No, listen,
I don't watch that kinda stuff". You know, celebrities will say,
"Why would I watch anything that's bigoted?"
Have you watched the Leah Remini documentary
- about Scientology? - No. Not interested.
Cut the shit. That's a pussy answer,
and journalists who accept that answer
are also pussy, so I'm calling their shit out too.
These people are doing extreme things.
They are saying these horrible things about you,
about you, about anybody who's spoken out against Scientology,
and they need to be held accountable.
- I agree. - They are representing.
They are now the face.
Since you are no longer the face of Scientology, they are.
So if they're gonna say something,
they should be held accountable.
They should be asked these questions.
I'm sorry, at the beginning, I excused them.
They were my friends, and I excused them.
You know what, damn them now for being purposely blind.
There is abuse going on within the church,
and they could see it if they wanted to.
All these Scientologists could see this abuse,
if they just decided to open their eyes.
If they just looked over here, it's not that far away.
When you actually look, it's right there.
I mean, they have plenty of people
in Scientology still who are, in fact, suppressive,
who have done heinous things.
Heinous things, and that's okay with them,
as long as they don't speak out against Scientology.
You can have a rapist there.
You can have a child molester there.
That's okay.
Those people are not suppressive.
They can be handled,
or, if they're Scientologists,
they didn't even commit a crime.
These people who say they're seeking the truth
are terrified of truth,
because if it disagrees with them,
it'll shake their entire life.
Yes, it will, trust me. It shook my entire life,
and that's a good thing.
And I'm ashamed I didn't do it before,
and some day, these same people will be ashamed.
They'll be ashamed that they attacked Leah,
be ashamed that they said these things.
They're actively participating in a lie.
I don't know how you live with that.
There was a whole world of people out there
traumatized by these horrendous ranches.
I didn't realize until, like, day three,
"Holy shit, this is a labor camp".
I was told, "One, build your prison,
and two, live in it".
Standard punishment was called the paddle.
He would bend you over,
and then he would hit you with it.
I was eight. I was eight years old.
I... I can't believe this.
Did I have any idea that this shit
was going on with children? No.
What the fuck were we part of?