Richard Nixon was renowned for having no small talk,
and yet he always insisted that any meeting should begin with
five minutes of small talk - of which he had none!
When I first went to see him at San Clemente, with five minutes
I knew to fill, clutching at straws, I mentioned that Brezhnev was
featured on the front page of that day's LA Times.
Nixon shook his head.
"I wouldn't want to be a Russian leader," he said.
"They never know when they are being taped."
Richard Nixon knew that information was power.
He wanted control of as much information as possible,
and he saw alternate centres of information control -
journalists, leakers, whistleblowers -
as threats if not enemies.
Nixon saw the government's own centres of information-gathering,
like the FBI and the CIA, as potential threats too,
and he tried to bring them under firmer presidential control.
He wanted to know as much as possible,
and he wanted a chokehold on how much others knew.
And while Nixon started the war on drugs and famously enlisted
Elvis Presley in the struggle, he himself was dabbling with
un-prescribed use of at least one powerful prescription drug.
So there was much the President wanted to keep secret
and, ironically, thanks to the taping, his thoughts and actions
became the most un-secret of those of any world leader, ever.
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The conversations you're about to see were the words
actually spoken by the participants, edited only for time
and in keeping with the era in which the original White House tapes were recorded,
this programme is presented in standard definition.
We better forget about the goddamn campaign right this minute,
not tomorrow, now. That's what concerns me.
We've all this power and not using it.
Now, what the Christ is the matter?
In other words, what I'm really saying is this -
I think we have to get it out. I don't know.
Well, you've got the facts.
Did you check the other side of the facts?
What is going on with... Who is working on this full-time?
That's what I wanna know. Who is running IRS?
Who is running over at Justice Department?
So, what I meant is, with all the agencies of government,
what in the name of God are we doing about the...
about the McGovern contributors?
Well, the short answer to your question is nothing.
Er... Well, they're doing it to us. No question, no question...
And it's never happened that way before. Er...
Johnson screwed everybody. Kennedy, when we were out in '52,
the Truman people were kicking the hell out of me. Sure.
'62 they kicked the hell out of me.
Part of the problem is the bureaucracy,
but part of the problem is our own goddamn fault.
There's got to be something we can do. I don't disagree.
Is there anybody who can do this kind of work?
The trouble is, of course,
we have too many nice guys around who just want to do the right thing.
The problem that we've had, as I understand it, going back to the
'70 and '71 period where there were efforts made to do this, is...
We get caught. ..that we get caught.
They come back with the thing of, "We can't pull a file because
"there's got to be reason to pull a file."
And you gotta have... We did pull files anyway,
but that gets flagged at the District Office
or something like that, and somebody runs out and tells...
That's IRS, OK. What about other agencies of government?
What are the guys in the goddamn Justice Department doing?
Can we investigate people? Is there anything we can do? Anything?
Yes, and it's interesting the problem that you have with this.
Guys are just touchy as hell about co-operating with us
on this kind of thing.
They're scared of their asses, is what they say,
and they don't want to read their names in the paper
and that's the whole... that's the whole name of this game.
Well, I guess perhaps there's nothing we can do about this problem,
I agree, but it's so goddamn frustrating... Sure.
..to think that they screwed us, and people are here,
people are sticking us around, we don't have anything going on.
I think part of the problem is that we are... What is it, Bob?
They just... The Cabinet officers are afraid?
Yeah. I think we could get some people with some guts
in the second term, when we don't care about repercussions.
No. The trouble is, if we don't have a second term, it won't do much good.
Yeah, but doing this isn't going to get you a second term.
When you've got a fellow, you've got a fellow who is under attack,
has fallen on his ass a few times, what you do is you kick him again.
It's like Dempsey going for the kill with Firpo.
You just, go in, work him hard on the ribs.
You just keep whacking, whacking and whacking.
Well, that... I buy that completely. Scare the shit out of them.
Scare the shit out of them. Now, there are some Jews with the Mafia
involved in this all.
Are there any members of the Cabinet... as far as political?
Yeah, but you don't have anybody with very many guts on it
when it comes to, "Is something like this going to bounce back on me?"
And with very good justification
because of this jackass operation at the Watergate.
They are more sensitive than they would've been before,
and they would've been pretty sensitive before.
That's right. That's right.
But we do have a knack for doing this stuff ineptly. Absolutely.
And the last thing we need now - and that's what bothers me,
if we can't do this... It bothers me.
..eptly, then I think we better forego the benefits of doing it.
Very interesting thing - so few of those who
engage in espionage are Negroes. Very lucky that way.
As a matter of fact, very few of them become communists,
but the Negroes...
Negroes, if you were nuts enough to plant Negro spies...
They're not as intellectual. They're not smart enough.
It may be. They're not smart enough to be spies.
The Jews are born spies. Do you know something I've learned?
They're just in it up to their necks.
Well, the basic devious, simple as deviousness, that...
I know. Well, also, an arrogance. An arrogance that... Well...
that's what makes a spy, you know?
He puts himself above the law.
Incidentally, you know the situation with regard to our own?
I told you about it. You just told me the plane was bugged.
That's all there was, wasn't there? Now, we are never gonna put that out.
Well, this morning...
We've got no reason to embarrass Johnson,
but I think you will know what the situation is.
Edgar Hoover told Mitchell that our plane was bugged
for the last two weeks of the campaign.
Now, the reason there was for the bugging it, Johnson had it bugged.
Johnson ordered the bug personally, and Humphrey's, I think...
I'm not sure about Humphrey's, I know about ours.
The reason Johnson said he had it bugged was because
he was talking about, he had his Vietnam plans in there,
and he had to have information as to what we were gonna say about Vietnam.
But the plane was bugged...
God... for that entire two weeks period by J Edgar Hoover
and Johnson had every conversation intimate.
And you know where it was bugged?
In my compartment.
So, every conversation that I had for two weeks, Johnson had. Uh-huh.
Now, we're never, never gonna say anything...
Sure... because why, why embarrass...
It would look, look like hell but...
And I don't want the pressure.
Well, Hoover and Johnson...
They asked me at the press conference this morning
if this went on during the Johnson administration
and I said, "I don't know.
"I was not part of the Johnson administration.
"I was in Texas, being the Governor of Texas."
But I said, "I would not want to give that,
"or any other administration in my lifetime any seal of purity."
And everybody laughed. They all laughed. Yeah.
I'm not an enemy of the dirty tricks department,
nor do I sit here on this critical issue of the war as one who believes
that it serves the national interest to make somebody the goat.
But on the other hand,
I do feel that I have a responsibility to protect my own flanks,
so that when I am standing, either before a press conference
that I, er... as I say... have to...
lie is a bad word. I shouldn't have said it... I have to dodge something.
I've got to know what I'm dodging.
I hope the President is never sitting there saying,
"Well, there's this agency over here, that's above the presidency."
That's what we really get down to.
So they know things that I can't even...
I don't know about and, therefore,
I'm not in the position to do this, that, or the other thing.
You see what I mean? That's right.
Sir, I regard myself, you know, really, as working entirely for you.
Yeah. And anything I've got is yours. Anything you want, any time,
So, that's really the case. That's really the case.
Now, I want you to know that we are not... I'm not asking
for this for the purpose of spreading it out.
But on the other hand,
we do have to be well aware of the fact that stuff does kick around,
and what we will do, as we go along, we'll talk about it.
What I would like...
I don't want to get into it all. I think it's better, best that
I don't, but you and John, that's all, nobody else.
We've discussed the... Nobody else. ..whole classification problem.
Nobody else but you guys, but on the very important stuff,
if the two of you can talk... And no debriefing. No goddamn debriefing.
I gave up this idea, as a matter of fact, for years,
I don't even remember many committee meetings I go to. I just say what's
necessary to the troops when the meeting is over because, you know...
Well, it's an extraordinary thing but times change.
President Johnson was very explicit about not wanting notes on meetings
and so forth, and yet after he was out of office,
when I happened to be down in Texas, he said, "Didn't you used to write
"some notes about those functions and so forth?"
And I said, "No, sir. You were very explicit about that.
"I never wrote a word ever." And he said, "You didn't?"
And I said, "No, that was your order, wasn't it?"
He said, "Yes. As a matter of fact, it was.
"But I didn't think probably you would take it."
Well, I said, "I did it to the letter.
"I don't have a single note of any of your meetings."
You know, unfortunately, I don't either.
I wonder, this year,
if... I wonder if we really wanna get on a new,
a great new initiative. I wonder, wonder...
Well, the point I raise is and this is related to our problem on Hoover.
I read his... your memorandum. It's very interesting.
A very good fellow. Liddy, is it? Liddy.
Smart, isn't he? Yeah, very. Must be conservative as hell.
Conservative. Smart. Why did he leave the Bureau?
Well, er... he was Hoover's ghost writer,
did a lot of Hoover's speeches... And Hoover fired him?
No, no, he got disillusioned.
And he put in for a transfer and we found him over in...
Let me tell you what I have a feeling on.
It's a way out thing.
His analysis of Hoover from a psychological standpoint is
tremendously perceptive.
We may have on our hands here a man
who will pull down the temple with him, including me.
I don't think he would want that, if he considers himself a patriot,
but he sees himself now as McCarthy did. Yeah.
He sees himself as the issue... Yeah... rather than the issue,
and that's the weakness of any political man.
Ordinarily, I would not have sent you the whole piece.
I heard the whole thing.
I wanted to give you that build up that this guy gave you.
That piece would make a brilliant, brilliant piece of a magazine.
Anyway, he... actually, and this goes down to your other point,
interestingly enough, makes a stronger case for not doing
something on Hoover than doing something. Mm-hm..
Now, let me just run this by you -
it just occurred to me in the helicopter.
A deeper way of getting at a difficult... very, very difficult problem.
Now, Hoover, through all of his operatives, will piss on whoever we send up there.
Any other name. I don't think he'll approve any other name.
That's my guess. I know, I know. Now, there is a way to get around this,
to defuse this whole goddamn thing.
Hoover himself, Hoover made a very interesting point, he said,
"Regardless of who wins in '72," he says, "I will probably be out."
Of course he's right.
Why doesn't he announce, "I am... This is my last year at the Bureau.
"I am submitting my resignation, effective January 1st, 1972...
Mm-hm.
"..so that the new president selected,
"I will not be an issue in the campaign,
"and so the president selected can select whoever he wants"?
Now, from Hoover's standpoint, he just...
He has to realise he can't stay there for ever.
He has to realise that the new president,
at the age of 78 years of age - Is that what he would be then?
He's 77 now.
I don't know, I forget.
On Hoover - look up his name and age.
Hoover's age? Don't call the FBI to find out, just look it up.
I think it's 76 or 7.
I wouldn't wanna know month and birth date.
Now, you erm... Let's look at this from... In terms of...
One thing that'll happen... I don't know.
I don't know. Maybe it won't work.
Incidentally, what kind of a man is Sullivan, incidentally?
I don't know. Well, I don't know him at all, but they tell me...
I thought you did know him.
No, I never... I... don't think I ever met him,
or if I have, I only met him on very short acquaintance.
Well, from what I see in the description, he seems honest and capable.
Thoughtful.
Er... he's astute, er... a very sensitive guy...
apparently very well-spoken and has... very strong...
loyalties running down into the personnel of the Bureau.
Er... and... at one time
had an enormous amount of power over there, delegated by Hoover.
Didn't Sullivan do some of the intelligence work for Hoover?
Oh. Yes. And for us. Sure. That's right, Sir.
He will be 77 next birthday, which is January 1st. Fine.
Now, you see there, no man in his right mind would say that at 78,
the President of the United States ought to appoint him
Director of the FBI. He's too old. Yeah.
Sullivan was the man who executed
all your instructions for the secret taps.
So he knows all? Oh, I should... Will he rat on us?
Well, it depends on how he's treated. It's dependent...
Can we do anything for him? I think we'd better.
What about that guy?
What about the... that Whitney?
Did he give... The one who wanted the Ambassadorship to Spain?
Who? The old Whitney? I don't know if he did.
You know, he's rejuvenated himself.
I bet you the guy goes down to Switzerland and gotten those...
Shots. That's not all they give you. He looks absolutely marvellous.
He looks...20 years younger. Maybe he's taking Dreyfus' pills.
Well, he may be. What are Dreyfus' pills?
Oh, you know Dreyfus' pills. Dilantin?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Dilantin is for epilepsy. No, but it's also for...
No, Dreyfus thinks it cures everything. And he's getting somewhere with it.
It, apparently, it's better for... Well, it helps you sleep nicely, Bob
I mean, man, I'll tell you, what would I pay to sleep all night.
I said, "Jack, the only thing I'm missing is sleep. Will these help?"
"Oh, this will help you sleep." So, I took 'em for a few days
for sleeping. I mean, it doesn't help... It doesn't do a damn thing.
Well, I think it helps people who are anxiety prone more, you know?
And I think there's a... I'm sure Maurice Stans had to do what his wife says.
Stans said, "Jack Dreyfus told me to take 'em."
And you know, Stans was justifiably and understandably...
Very frustrating, of course... under a lot of very difficult... He is.
I told you his wife got him the pills.
He's not involved in Watergate, why did she? Well, us having to raise...
25 million's a lot of money, right? Yeah. What did the pills do for him?
He said..."I... I don't know whether they did any good or not,
"except that they... I'm sure that they did, because...
"because they... kept me on a very even keel," or something, you know?
Yeah. I understand he just took the...
He said, "Jack told me about them."
"He said, 'You're under the kind of strain you're under, you've gotta do something.'
"He said, 'These will take care of it.' So I used them and..."
Well, put him down.
Take a look at him.
Mr President, two other quick things if you have another moment? Sure.
We have those, uh, tapes, and logs and so forth over in Mardian's safe
on that background investigation, wiretapping we did
on Kissinger's staff, newspapermen and so forth.
Hoover... Those were given to Mardian by Sullivan before he left.
We have all the FBI's copies. Hm.
Hoover is tearing the place up over there trying to get at 'em.
The question is, should we get them out of Mardian's office
before Hoover blows the safe
and bring 'em over here and put 'em in Dean's custody?
Think John's custody, which I think would be the appropriate thing to do
because they're part of the overall investigation of the...
the Pentagon Papers and this whole mess.
My impression from talking to Mardian is that Hoover feels
really insecure without having his own copy of those things,
because, of course, it gives him leverage with Mitchell
and with you... Yup... and because they're illegal.
Now, he doesn't have any copies and he's got agents all over this town
interrogating people, trying to find out where they are.
He's got Mardian's building under surveillance... He doesn't have his own...
No, see, we've got 'em. Sullivan sneaked 'em out to Mardian.
Why the hell doesn't he have a copy, too?
If he does, he'll beat you over the head with it. Yeah.
Oh. Right, Mardian's in Justice.
You've gotta get them out of there. So we put them in my hands, then?
Sure, yeah, sure. Why don't we say the President wants them
in his own hands? I'm trying to get some from Helms in my own hands.
Why don't we put it that way?
Hoover knows damn well I'm not going to do anything.
Well, Hoover's not gonna come and talk to me about it.
He just got his... Gestapo all over the place.
I mean, if he does, I'm just gonna say they're over here.
Who will... You've got someone in mind?
Sure. Well, Just tell them we want them. I've got...
Put them in a special safe. I've got a place I can put 'em.
Not to mention, you tell Hoover... No, I-I would say,
we don't tell Hoover anything.
If Hoover comes to John, which is what Mardian's been telling him
to do, then John can say the President has them and Justice...
That'll turn him off.
Also, you can say the President's got Helms' stuff, which I get today,
from what I understand, on the Kennedy assassination.
Shall I go ahead with this confrontation then,
on the availability of the agents, their material? Sure.
And the Secret Service?
I think you should. Edgar Hoover has got to go.
If he does go, he has to go of his own volition, that's what it gets down to
and that's why we've got a hell of a problem.
At the present time, I don't think, John...
I think he'll stay there until he's 100 years old.
I think he loves it. Yeah. He loves himself.
He'll stay till he's buried there. Immortality.
The way he's... The way he's handling that department...
maybe we ought to... maybe we ought to let some of these Indians
loose over there, start tearing 'em up a little bit.
I'm only talking to you and your wife,
and maybe your child,
and the last two times, you did that.
Most Jews are disloyal.
A lot of Jews are great friends of mine.
They swarm around me.
You can't trust the bastards.
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